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I am at an impass, went to VIR (track in danville VA) to an audi event and drove my 2008 997.1 s with a bunch of audi S4s some were heavily modified. Killed most of the cars on the corners but was dissaponted with my cars power on the straights. I looked in to trading on a 2010 GT3, but my car has way too much negative equity to trade for at least 3 years. So I am debating what I can do to upgrade the power and suspension on my car and just keep as a track car in its latter years. I know many of you don't believe that exhausts, intakes and chips are worth much, but my dirtbikes always bennefit greatly from those changes. So my question is if anyone has debated putting the motor out of a wrecked GT3 or turbo in their car? Does the GT3 share the same tranny as the S? And does anyone else like the idea of a GT3 swap. Also I noticed that TPC now has a Turbo kit for the 997 claiming 515hp. I know that Paul Speed had a bad experience with his brothers supercharger, but could that have been remedied with a better oil seperator, and could you get 50,000miles out of the motor with that mod on it. Lastly if all of the above will not work does anyone know roughly what I could expect from a carboni Cai, softronic ecu upgrade and a full exhaust (AWE?) including the high flow cats. I know most of you are sick of this topic, but your insight is greatly appreciated. I am the gut who posted a couple of months back on more power from PSE. Also does anyone know which aftermarket exhaust sounds most like the PSE, I love the sound and definately could use it even louder. Sorry for the 9million questions

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I am at an impass, went to VIR (track in danville VA) to an audi event and drove my 2008 997.1 s... Killed most of the cars on the corners but was dissaponted with my cars power on the straights.

Awesome! Was it an instructed event? First time out? 997s are wondeful track cars. If this wasn't some sort of timed event or race, I humbly suggest that you might instead concentrate on being smooth and consistent and not worry about what's behind of or ahead of you. The "red mist" is tough to avoid, but it's worth it if you can.

I looked in to trading on a 2010 GT3, but my car has way too much negative equity to trade for at least 3 years.

That's a tough situation to be in, sorry to hear it. All the more reason, IMO, to love what you have, which is an excellent car. If you can avoid the upgrade bug for a few more years you'll be able to turn your car into something liquid and step up to whatever's latest and greatest. If you spend a lot of money now trying to "fix" your car, it will just increase the equity gap.

Not that it's my business but since you've raised the subject of money: If you're considering a swap because you can't get financed on a new GT3 with your rollover debt but canfinance engine upgrades with cash or revolving debt, I suggest putting the cash into your car note, or leaving the credit card in your wallet. A Porsche is truly a luxury good and almost never a good financial investment, but even a diehard enthusiast would be hard pressed to pour money into a depreciating asset owned by the bank with cash due at sale.

So my question is if anyone has debated putting the motor out of a wrecked GT3 or turbo in their car? Does the GT3 share the same tranny as the S? And does anyone else like the idea of a GT3 swap. Also I noticed that TPC now has a Turbo kit for the 997 claiming 515hp. I know that Paul Speed had a bad experience with his brothers supercharger, but could that have been remedied with a better oil seperator, and could you get 50,000miles out of the motor with that mod on it.

Since you've done some reading here let me start by repeating what you probably already know: There's precious little performance to gain from your car without spending a LOT of money.

I don't think I've seen a GT3 swap in a 997, although I do believe it's been done on a 996. Anything's possible, but the GT3 is more than just your 911 with a dry-sump motor; everything has been tuned, upgraded or optimized for the GT1 motor's output. I imagine that the money spent doing this could easily eclipse the finance and depreciation costs of upgrading to a GT3. The turbo and SC kits are expensive, and hard to justify considering all the 996 turbos out there--for cheaper money than your current car--that reliably put down GT3 HP and nice, flat torque.

Lastly if all of the above will not work does anyone know roughly what I could expect from a carboni Cai, softronic ecu upgrade and a full exhaust (AWE?) including the high flow cats. I know most of you are sick of this topic, but your insight is greatly appreciated. I am the gut who posted a couple of months back on more power from PSE. Also does anyone know which aftermarket exhaust sounds most like the PSE, I love the sound and definately could use it even louder. Sorry for the 9million questions

I never tire of this topic, because despite being posted many times by many people the answer seems to fall on deaf ears. Here it is, tailored to your context: You can expect to spend about $1-5000 on the intake/exhaust/chip trilogy and still be disappointed on the straights when any car with higher displacement or forced induction blows your doors off. Plain as that.

Here are a few options available that might suit your need for extra speed:

  1. Buy a cheaper but more powerful car (996 TT, vette, etc.) once you have enough cash to wipe out your negative equity. Maybe you'd like owning one of those Audis that made you see red mist.
  2. Buy a momentum car, like a Miata, and track it. Learn to live without all the motor you already have, so that you hone your driving skills to the point where the extra power is just a bonus. Like you, my car is a 997.1S and I have dreams of stepping up to the GT3, but at the end of the day I can't come close to mastering the capabilities of my car and I've been driving on the track for years now. My next car is probably a 912, less is more sometimes.
  3. Stay off the racetrack and hit the drag strip instead, where far less money will get you far more speed and bragging rights. A little NOS goes a long way, live life a quarter mile at a time, etc.

I hope that you understand my perspective just as I'm trying to understand yours. You have a great car, some say the best car. Taking the original and attempting to improve it may yield a lesser product, and few have been demonstrated to refine Porsche's formula without a lot of time, money and know-how. There are faster cars, better-handling cars, and more exclusive cars, but your Porsche is in rare company and the sum of its parts is arguably greater than cars that cost twice as much. Enjoy.cheers.gif

Mark

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number9ine, I understand the relative foolishness of investing in the 2008 but I do believe that I could build a gt3 or equilvelent for far less than they currently sell for, I am not sure if they use the same transmission as the S, but the coilovers could be added for $2700, it is the exact same chassis minus some performance pieces, you don't get a seam welded body untill you buy the cup car. None the less on the mod front, I have two yamaha dirt bikes, one is a wr450f the other a yz450f, both run identical motors and a high compression ratios. the wr has emmisions, a different cam and a restricted exhaust. The power difference between them is ridiculous, the wr does have more torque but the yzs horsepower just blows it away. So I don't understand why no one feels that the same can be done with these cars running an 11.3-1 compression ratio. restictive intake, headers and smog compliant fuel mapping. As to the driving, I think all will agree that driving school is a worthwhile investment, far above additional power. But you can't argue with a 8500rpm redline.

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I have to disagree with on you building a GT3 for less than they currently sell for. Even an engine out of a wrecked GT3 will set you back big time (these are very sought after with folks with deep pockets.) Also you will not be able to use the same transmission or electronics. The GT3 tranny is different than the S and very expensive..

You will have to beef up the clutch as well as oither parts of the drive train. Then like you said you'll have to address the suspension.

You would be much better off buying a low mile 07 GT3 which can be had for about $75k. Unless you're really an outstanding Porsche track racer I doubt you would get much more out of the 2010 GT3 than the 2007.

Below is a link to a GT3 with 39k on it....

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=p&car_id=279081866&dealer_id=65258125&car_year=2007&rdm=1274475693679&lastStartYear=1981&num_records=25&model=911&systime=&make2=&highlightFirstMakeModel=&start_year=2007&engine=&keywordsrep=&keywordsfyc=&certified=&fuel=&body_code=0&awsp=false&search_type=both&distance=0&marketZipError=false&search_lang=en&showZipError=y&first_record=26&make=POR&color=&keywords_display=&scarid=278670055&page_location=findacar%3A%3Aispsearchform&min_price=&drive=&default_sort=priceDESC&seller_type=b&max_mileage=&style_flag=1&sort_type=priceDESC&address=91103&advanced=&end_year=2007&pager.offset=25&transmission=&doors=&max_price=&cardist=1929&standard=false&rdpage=thumb

Just my 2 cents and good luck with whatever you decide to do..

Edited by phillipj

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Thanks for the input phillipj, my search for gt3 motors today told me the same thing. I know you have been burned buy a sc kit, but do we know anyone who is pleased with them? I noticed tpc now has a turbo kit and I live within three hours from them so I could have them do a complete install. I know it puts alot of strain on the motor, but I think I could replace the stock unit for under 10 k with a reman unit if it were to explode. Suncoast was selling complete reman x51s for 8k and change it would be an option but I only have 6500 miles on my motor. If the turbo is out, what do people think of the awe exhaust, carboni CAI and softtronic. Then possibly a set of bilstein pss9s and GT3 swaybars, strut braces and GT3 lower control arms. Like I said I plan on buying a GT3 in 2-3 years but I want to get all I can out of my current car in power for now, life is but a vapor.

In Christ

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One other note number9ine I still passed the S4s, I just thought I should be blowing them away in my car.

With some more track time, the gap between you and other (possibly more powerful) cars will increase. From your responses here it's apparent you're looking for people with like minds to agree with you on modifications to your car, and don't subscribe to the idea of buying a higher hp car now or learning the dynamic limits of your current car. I wish you luck in seeking additional straight-line performance from your car, and I hope the associated expense and risk isn't untenable.

Best of luck.

Mark

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The power difference between them is ridiculous, the wr does have more torque but the yzs horsepower just blows it away.

Just saw this and thought to comment on it: Torque is the definitive measurement of acceleration, and faster acceleration is your stated goal. The tradeoff of torque for additional horsepower would leave you at a disadvantage at corner exit speeds or at highway speeds, all for a gain of a few mph top speed (horsepower). Considering your car's stock top speed can be legally and safely achieved in few places, you may consider seeking mods that improve your torque response in the midrange instead of focusing on increased hp numbers and higher redline. Horsepower may increase with greater torque, but torque doesn't necessarily increase with added HP.

Mark

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Honestly, I was just looking for some input from people who have done these mods. I appreciate your advice but was hoping to see some people say I modded the car and it is a waste or I did it and I am pleased with the results. I have seen a couple of posters in the past who were pleased with the mods. I would love to simply have more midrange on the motor 3500-5500 rpms. Also I was trying to see if anyone has had a good experience with TPC's systems or did the motor blow up and it was no good. I understand everyone knows the aftermarket companies lie about their dyno numbers, but the same people who always seem to tell me the mods are a waste of money seem to have them installed on their car because "it enhances the way it drives." I am not chasing mega horsepower nor do I think 15K is alot to drop into mods on a car and no I am deffinately not using revolving debt tto do it, But I traded 2 cars too close together and my current car is 40k upsidedown. I could suck it up, but my accountants would not be pleased with me if I don't wait a while for a trade and carry negative equity across to a GT3. This is my 4th Pcar, the only one I ever chipped prior was a 1991 944 S2 back in 1994, It was not a dramatic difference, but I could still feel it and it was worth the money. Is that too much to ask from a forum devoted to porsches and their drivers.

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I don't race cars - too expensive for my blood - but used to race sailboats, so a number of similar principles. Whenever you have mixed classes, someone with deeper pockets and/or newer technology will eventually be faster, no matter how good a driver you are. Yes, you could build your own Franken-GT3, but after spending countless dollars and hours, someone in short order is going to take a new Audi, Subaru, Mazda or something else and have a faster car. From what I have observed, street Porsches, including the GT3, are not about blisteringly fast straight line speed.

I was at Supercar Sunday this morning, as much for me to look at nice cars as for my dog to pose in front of the ones she likes. A guy in a Noble drove up and I spent a while talking to him. There aren't many Nobles around here, and they are pretty basic cars. The few guys who have them track them a lot, mostly because they are light, fast and you can get a brand new crate motor delivered to your doorstep for under $4,500 (turbocharged Ford V-6). The one my dog is posing in front of makes about 600 HP and weighs a little over 2,000 lbs. If you blow up a GT3 motor, you'll basically have a not driveable hacked up 997 until you shell out for a new GT3 engine

post-84-127464708319_thumb.jpg post-84-127464711127_thumb.jpg

If you want to go fast, race, be competitive and don't have megabucks to spend, have you thought about a one design class, so you're not at the mercy of losing out to a new Audi, BMW or Corvette that will eventually blow your doors off even after you put a GT3 motor in your 997? The spec Boxsters look like a semi-affordable blast and are pretty close to true racecars. Lots of other classes where you can be competitive against similar cars, from carting to Miatas to vettes or whatever. And lots of Porsche only races that look like the cars are fairly evenly matched. I always found racing against similar cars more exciting and satisfying, since the racing is closer, the price to play more reasonable, and the results reflect the driver's skill instead of wallet size.

By the way, the 959 my dog is posing in front of used to be considered incredibly fast. It's still quite respectable by today's standards, but isn't spectacular compared to current fast cars.

Final thought - if you're worried about being under water on what you owe on your 997 today, think how much less it's going to be worth in a few years. Porsche is cranking out cars as fast as they can, and unlike the old air cooled Porsches, I don't think most of today's cars will retain their value as in the past. Look at how many used Boxsters and 996s out there now are going for dirt cheap

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Honestly, I was just looking for some input from people who have done these mods. ...

Don't you think everyone would be talking about how great all these mods are if they truly were?! Instead, everyone whines about how they wish their car was faster. If I really felt the burning desire to make my Boxster faster, I'd replace the little sewing machine motor with a Carrera S engine. Way more cost effective approach to lots more speed than any other alternative. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a good enough driver to take full advantage of my woefully underpowered Boxster, much less one with twice as much power

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Geoff, a carrera S engine would be fantastic in your car, it would flat out fly. One of the guys who run our local pca autocross has a 914 with a 3.2 in it, between his skill and his car not many can touch him on the autocross course. I am not trying to whine about my cars power, it is the best driving car I've ever owned. I would just like to get every drop of power out of it. Also I would love to try spec class racing, I know seat time equals lap times, slow is fast, Cole Trickle, Fast is Slow, but sideways is always more fun. Love the Noble/rossion Q1 and the 959. So the verdict is that I will not appreciate the driving difference on my 3.8 NA if I try to put 6-8k worth of mods on it. Thanks to all who have commented. I was not trying to insult anyone or their cars, I just always tinker with my cars some to try to make them slightly better.

Randy

In Christ

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Geoff, a carrera S engine would be fantastic in your car, it would flat out fly...

A friend had the first 987S that Ruf put a 3.8 Carrera S engine with the X51 power kit. Excellence did a spread on it a couple of years back. Loads of fun to drive through the canyons. I was grinning ear to ear the whole time I drove it. I thought it was like 80% of a Carrera GT at 20% of the price. The power was hugely addicting. But it didn't really handle noticeably better through the tight twisties. My friend would like more power, but is mature enough at this point in his life that he's not going to do anything about it. It's a slippery slope - whatever power you have is never enough. Look at all the guys trying to get more power out of their Turbos. I was lusting after a GT3 for several days after driving a friend's, but deep down knew it would be a much harder car to live with on a daily basis. His wife referred to it as their driveway ornament - I think he only had about 7K miles on it after a year and a half when he decided to sell it. We talked about it later and he half-heartedly admitted buying the GT3 was more of an ego and bragging rights thing than anything else. In retrospect, he would have just bought a Carrera S and would probably still be driving it. The nice thing about mostly stock street Porsches is they are so satisfying to drive all the time and so easy to live with on a daily basis. Unfortunately, the days of Porsche street cars as race cars ended a while ago

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Hey Geoff, does your friend's GT3 sit due to suspension roughness or is he affraid to damge it? By the way I love my S, but I am guilty of being power greedy. On the flip side, I also posted at 6speed online and one of the forum members said he added softronic, awe cats and a fabspeed air intake and he is very pleased with the results. A Gt3 may be some ego or just mechanical lust but I dreamed of racing cars for the last 30 years. Now, by the grace of God I had a taste of driving on a road corse. It was everything I dreamed it would be, and I can't wait to do it again. I been to 2 autocross events in richmond VA on the nascar track, but nothing compares to the fun of a road course. I think most of us that Porsches deep down always want more power. Still my S is the best car Ive ever had. When I was a child I dreamed of a Ferrari or Lambo, but Porsches are a slightly easier to afford. Here is a link to his review: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997/192 498-short-review-softronic-x51-awe-cats-bmc-air-filter.html

I want to thank all who have replied to my post.

Sorry for the bad sentace structure, but my laptop keeps moving the cursor around.

Randy

In Christ

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Hey Geoff, does your friend's GT3 sit due to suspension roughness or is he affraid to damge it? By the way I love my S, but I am guilty of being power greedy. On the flip side, I also posted at 6speed online and one of the forum members said he added softronic, awe cats and a fabspeed air intake and he is very pleased with the results. A Gt3 may be some ego or just mechanical lust but I dreamed of racing cars for the last 30 years...

His GT3 sat a lot because he traveled for business, he has 2 small kids and for road trips it wasn't particularly practical. I think if he could have figured out how to put the Carrera back seats in he would have kept it longer. He and another guy drove it from LA to Las Vegas for a meeting shortly after he bought it, and the other guy complained about feeling every bump in the road. His wife was cool about the car - he hit 100 coming up behind me on a very twisty canyon (4x the legal speed limit), and his wife was smiling. But she wouldn't drive the car and it was costing a lot each month (lease + insurance was over $2K/month). Since it was leased, he was a bit careful about damage, since he would have to fix it before turning it back in, and like most new Porsches, he took a good size depreciation hit as soon as he drove it off the lot. And there were plenty of clients he couldn't drive it to because the car wouldn't send the right message. Add it all up and he decided as much as he loved the car, and he had wanted it for several years before he got it, the car didn't make sense for him.

With all that being said, I see a surprising number of GT3s around here that people leave parked on the street all the time and use for daily drivers, so they can definitely be considered almost practical. When I drove the GT3, it certainly rode much smoother than when I drove my local dealer's head mechanic's 911S clone, which was a mid-70s vintage street hot rod

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Thanks Geoff, I looked into adding the rear seats to one, cost is about 4K if it still has the mounting points, evidently the older ones do. But I will have to wait until the value of my S and the payoff are closer to each other or just simply keep what I got. In the mean time though I have been tempted by the comment I received from Cattman on 6speed online. He loves his VF SC, he said something like 530hp.

Randy

In Christ

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Well decided on the VF SC and placed a deposit on it today, I am sending it out to vf for the install. After debating it and some research I decided I would sound better than a Turbo system. With some suspension bits It may be faster than a 2010 GT3 away. Anyone have advice on increasing front a rear tire size to 235 front and 305-325 rear. I have turbo style rims on my car, don't know if they will properly take more tread width or not?

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Well decided on the VF SC and placed a deposit on it today, I am sending it out to vf for the install. After debating it and some research I decided I would sound better than a Turbo system...

Randy - since you're having the VF supercharger installed, you might want to check with Jake Raby to see if there are any particular plastic engine parts that should be upgraded while you're at it. Unlike the old air cooled engines, everything indicates all the water cooled flat sixes are designed by accountants as much as by engineers. Probably relatively cheap insurance

Edited by geoff

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I am at an impass, went to VIR (track in danville VA) to an audi event and drove my 2008 997.1 s with a bunch of audi S4s some were heavily modified. Killed most of the cars on the corners but was dissaponted with my cars power on the straights. I looked in to trading on a 2010 GT3, but my car has way too much negative equity to trade for at least 3 years. So I am debating what I can do to upgrade the power and suspension on my car and just keep as a track car in its latter years. I know many of you don't believe that exhausts, intakes and chips are worth much, but my dirtbikes always bennefit greatly from those changes. So my question is if anyone has debated putting the motor out of a wrecked GT3 or turbo in their car? Does the GT3 share the same tranny as the S? And does anyone else like the idea of a GT3 swap. Also I noticed that TPC now has a Turbo kit for the 997 claiming 515hp. I know that Paul Speed had a bad experience with his brothers supercharger, but could that have been remedied with a better oil seperator, and could you get 50,000miles out of the motor with that mod on it. Lastly if all of the above will not work does anyone know roughly what I could expect from a carboni Cai, softronic ecu upgrade and a full exhaust (AWE?) including the high flow cats. I know most of you are sick of this topic, but your insight is greatly appreciated. I am the gut who posted a couple of months back on more power from PSE. Also does anyone know which aftermarket exhaust sounds most like the PSE, I love the sound and definately could use it even louder. Sorry for the 9million questions

Ok.

It is all very interesting. I would say this - if you are not into serious competitive auto sport and you do not care to keep your car stock - go with TPC. Look up on 997 forum on 6speedonline.com - there is a huge thread there about this mod. if will set you up to $12K-$15K to get it done.

FI on 997 C2S is doable and delivers plenty of power.

Now, if you want my opinion - better solution, much better solution actually is to bite the bullet and get stock GT3 RS if you got that serious feeling inside that you are a track junkie. When you get serious into any racing it starts to play major role to see in what class do you fit. All those severe customizations like rebuilding engine and putting FI kit on it will put you together with cars in completely different league.

I am an owner of C2 car and I am rebuilding it to some degree as well and also considered putting FI system on it - either a TPC turbo or used EVO supercharger. I already have front GT3 LCAs, GT3 rear sway bar, and debating right now what coilover set to put on. All that is doable and will improve base car a lot. Still, if you do have finances for it - starting from stock GT3 car would be completely different game. If you can afford it - do it and you will not regret.

But do not try to put GT3 motor into C2S - 'transforming' whole C2S car into GT3 will cost you much more than simple trade-in of you C2S for same year used GT3 car.

Edited by utkinpol

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Just be patient and buy another car when the time is right. I'm not even upside down in my 997.1 C4S w/ GT3 body kit and I'm not even thinking about getting anything else... just yet. I believe that with Porsche, you need to wait until there's enough of a change to where you will appreciate your next purchase.

My next Porsche will be a NEXT Generation Turbo. That car will be different enough from my car to where I will feel like I made a true jump and moved up in the world. I was thinking about purschasing a 997.1 Turbo but other than the hp, it's basically a faster C4S.

Just be happy with your purschase and pay it off. When I get my 991/998 turbo, I'm keeping the paid for 997.1 C4S and turning it into a track car. I'm going to lighten that baby up enjoy tossing her around. Maybe you should take my route.

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Natinupe1,

The 997-1 Turbo is a completely different car than the C4S (or an S.) If had you have spent anytime behind the wheel of the Turbo you would see how different it is than your C4S. My good friend has a 997 C4s and we go driving and swap cars. Totally different car.. My friend agrees as well.

Almost everything about the car feels different. (except it's still a Porsche.) The way you drive the two cars is totally different as well.. 350 normally aspirated HP and 550 turbo are certainly not the same..

Granted my car has been slightly modified but you really can't compare the two. It is certainly not just a "faster C4S"..

Just thought I'd comment...

:cheers:

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Natinupe1,

The 997-1 Turbo is a completely different car than the C4S (or an S.) If had you have spent anytime behind the wheel of the Turbo you would see how different it is than your C4S. My good friend has a 997 C4s and we go driving and swap cars. Totally different car.. My friend agrees as well.

Almost everything about the car feels different. (except it's still a Porsche.) The way you drive the two cars is totally different as well.. 350 normally aspirated HP and 550 turbo are certainly not the same..

Granted my car has been slightly modified but you really can't compare the two. It is certainly not just a "faster C4S"..

Just thought I'd comment...

:cheers:

If you are not careful, and what I think a lot of your Porsche brothers are saying is, decide what you want to use the 911 for and wait and get the car you really want. By the time you finish adding all the modifications

to engine and suspension and getting the car dialed in and spending all that money... you could have just sold your car, and put that extra money down on a used GT3 or Turbo

that is already a lot more car and dialed in the way Porsche meant it to be.. I also have gone down the modification engine swap trail and have a very unique

3.4 liter boxster that drives very much like a Boxster Spyder. I have invested almost 30k in upgrades over the years... Had I been patient and waited I could have

purchased or put down a big chunk of change on a Boxster Spyder which already has all the goodies already on it.... Same goes for your 911. it may seem

to work budget wise now, but when will enough mods, be enough... just something to think about.

As far as the different Porsche models, In a way I can see both sides here. As an owner of a C4S also I can say without a doubt that a 997.1 turbo's power delivery, acceleration,

sounds of intake and exhaust, clutch feel, and driving style are completely different. If you think you need to respect the power of our normally aspirated 355 hp engines,

you better sure as heck respect the turbo's... that sucker hauls butt so you better be ready for the power when it kicks in....

That being said... I can see the point of waiting for something a lot different. The C4S and turbo share the same interior (based on options) and same awd system more or less. The suspension may share a lot

of the same parts, but the driving style completely changes when the Turbo torque kicks in. So it does feel like a very different machine. To drive one at fwy speeds feels about the same until you mash the throttle,

then the similarities fade quickly. There is also the prestige factor that must be considered as well, but that's another topic. The different Porsche 911 models do feel different and you get what

you pay for.... sometimes you pay dearly...

also the next version 911 (991/998) will be different enough that it will be like going from a 996 to a 997... I can't wait to see it and drive it ;^)

Edited by qikqbn

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