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deilenberger

Alternative Transfer Case Fluid?

41 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

There are factory spec ranges for each value that are designed to be used as wear characteristics to determine when service is required, much like useful tread depth on tires.

 

Can you perhaps share what those values are?

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I'm currently away from the shop for a few days, so no, I cannot help you at this time, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

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I will be changing with the same oil - Motul DCTF.  I'm not sure if Pelican sells it or not. 

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20 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

I'm currently away from the shop for a few days, so no, I cannot help you at this time, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

 

There is certainly no rush on it - I'm just curious if there is ANY documentation on what the values mean, and where they come from. I had assumed the V40 measurement was done as a resistance measurement through the oil - more metal in the oil = more wear, but now I'm not so sure.  Since they do give a max value as an indication the oil should be changed - it doesn't seem like it would be just a calculated value - that could be made mileage dependent fairly easily.  But - the fact that they have you reset it to 0 after changing the oil - almost makes me think it's calculating the torque (a measurement of force) that has gone through the transfer case.

 

Mystery. That is the only mention of that value in the service manual, and none of the other values are ever mentioned.

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Well count me in, thanks to this thread I am fairly sure we have a failing transfer case on my wife's recently purchased 1-owner 958 V6 6MT (105k miles - her dream car since shes a manual lover like me and cant buy a decent stick SUV anymore).

 

As I was unfamiliar with Cayenne drivetrain issues, my research made me believe our symptoms were that of the 955/957 cardan shaft which is a thankfully much less expensive fix. Reading the descriptions here and I am almost certain its transfer case related instead.

 

Slow speed sharp turns result in what feels like a truck stuck in 4WD low maneuvering in a parking lot, a significant binding and noisy feeling. In a straight line the effect is less pronounced, more of a thumping hesitation in 3rd and 4th gear during harder acceleration, however essentially undetectable in 1st/2nd and 5th/6th.

 

I had planned on taking it in tomorrow for a diagnositc at a local Porsche shop, but now will try a fluid change (Ravenol TF-0870) tomorrow instead

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3NWHGHN360KCD

 

Will report back with any results. 

 

Any tricks to the fluid swap? Seemed pretty straight forward in the service manual: Elevate car, remove top plug, remove bottom plug, drain until empty, then refill.

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3 hours ago, ChrisFu said:

Well count me in, thanks to this thread I am fairly sure we have a failing transfer case on my wife's recently purchased 1-owner 958 V6 6MT (105k miles - her dream car since shes a manual lover like me and cant buy a decent stick SUV anymore).

 

As I was unfamiliar with Cayenne drivetrain issues, my research made me believe our symptoms were that of the 955/957 cardan shaft which is a thankfully much less expensive fix. Reading the descriptions here and I am almost certain its transfer case related instead.

 

Slow speed sharp turns result in what feels like a truck stuck in 4WD low maneuvering in a parking lot, a significant binding and noisy feeling. In a straight line the effect is less pronounced, more of a thumping hesitation in 3rd and 4th gear during harder acceleration, however essentially undetectable in 1st/2nd and 5th/6th.

 

I had planned on taking it in tomorrow for a diagnositc at a local Porsche shop, but now will try a fluid change (Ravenol TF-0870) tomorrow instead

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3NWHGHN360KCD

 

Will report back with any results. 

 

Any tricks to the fluid swap? Seemed pretty straight forward in the service manual: Elevate car, remove top plug, remove bottom plug, drain until empty, then refill.

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds.

 

What year is your wife's Cayenne?  Just curious.

 

And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is..  funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?"  I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix.  Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem.  Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem.

 

BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair.

 

BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

Edited by deilenberger

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1 hour ago, deilenberger said:

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds.

 

What year is your wife's Cayenne?  Just curious.

 

And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is..  funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?"  I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix.  Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem.  Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem.

 

BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair.

 

BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

 

Cayenne is 2012, purchased from a very high volume Porsche dealer cross country and shipped (we never test drove it, first time Ive ever purchased a car this way). Sure enough, I noticed the bucking problem right away, however it was slight at the time and has progressively become more noticeable.

 

Strangely enough some days it almost disappears, and some days its rather extreme. Does not correlate with ambient temperature, drive duration, or any other factor save perhaps extra low speed steering time seemed to exacerbate the problem this weekend.

 

Drained the fluid tonight and have images below. I have seen and smelled worse, but this is pretty dark stuff. No large visible particulate in suspension based on a drip curtain test.

 

IMG_20170320_211749.jpg
IMG_20170320_211855.jpg

 

Edited by ChrisFu

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Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out.  My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid.

 

I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

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Curious as well.  Mine was most grabby in slow, sharp turns like parking lots.  And 3rd and 4th gear were the worst going straight as well.  Still no issues after my oil change = I'm driving it daily until the next change this weekend just to be sure.

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2 hours ago, the head said:

Curious as well.  Mine was most grabby in slow, sharp turns like parking lots.  And 3rd and 4th gear were the worst going straight as well.  Still no issues after my oil change = I'm driving it daily until the next change this weekend just to be sure.

So you are doing the second fluid change as a precaution to clear out any remaining oil?

 

My indy shop is slammed so I can't get anything done until Thursday.  Is it safe to drive the car for now, or is it going to cause more wear?

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9 hours ago, deilenberger said:

Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out.  My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid.

 

I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

 

The smell is definitely of "toasted" hydrocarbons, but not as "burnt" as I have smelled from some really bad differential oil changes before (smelled up my whole garage for a week). That being said, those were totally different gear oils as I have never drained an automatic transmission or gearbox that used ATF prior to this so maybe it is indeed on the same level.

 

ill try to snap a side-by-side of the new oil vs used this afternoon. Also likely going to send some to Blackstone.

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Good news to report; I appear to have the same success!

 

Immediately after the fluid swap I took the Cayenne on a spin to a local industrial park and first of all noticed nearly no detectable stumble through 3rd and 4th (a new experience for me in this car!) on the way over. I followed that by tight figure 8s through a commercial parking lot for 10 minutes or so with no binding, lurch, shudder or anything. This appears to have remedied the 90-95% symptoms immediately, so I guess I will wait with bated breath to determine the longevity of the fix.

 

Below you can see the immense difference in new fluid color versus what is probably the original lube after 109k miles.

 

Also, the Ravenol bottle actually has a very handy dispenser that I used in lieu of the OTC Syringe (the tubing included with the syringe was actually too large to fit into the inspection plug hole, whereas the Ravenol was a smaller OD and fit perfectly).

IMG_20170321_183353.jpg


IMG_20170321_183409.jpg

Edited by ChrisFu

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Very nice Chris. Please keep us informed on how well it holds up, and I'll be quite interested to hear what Blackstone has to say..

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I see the Ravenol meets the spec for the Porsche 000-043-301-36 / 00004330136 for Cayenne Transfer Case oil I am curious what the difference might be in the -63 "new" spec. x-fer case oil? In mid-April I will install the -63 oil which will be at 70K miles with 5K miles on the original spec. oil. I figure $60 in fluids is cheap insurance. I'll try to duplicate the pictures Chris shared as a comparison at that time. 

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On 3/21/2017 at 9:34 AM, steph280 said:

So you are doing the second fluid change as a precaution to clear out any remaining oil?

 

My indy shop is slammed so I can't get anything done until Thursday.  Is it safe to drive the car for now, or is it going to cause more wear?

 

Yes, just making sure I get as much of the old fluid that was stuck in the clutch pack and pump out of it.

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