Johnnyceesred

I met with the independent who's doing the work for me and he's going to sort a senior engineering/quality control contact in Stuttgart to write/e-mail to.

Rgds

John

sorry to read about all your woes john..and i admire your strength and the lengths that you are going too. im just a working man and not a rich porsche owner, but last year forked out 11,200 euros for a new engine which blew after only 80k km. i wish i had had the strengh and will to take it as far as you are.

i posted my woes back then....maybe you would like to read.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?s...amp;#entry42236

wish you lots of luck.

kelvin

Hi Kelvin,

Thanks for your sympathetic reply. I read your topic and hope your new engine's performing well. I too am a working man and I need the car for my business. I had a BMW M3 (3 years old, 78,000 miles, no problems) before my Porsche which blew me away when I saw it. Yes, love at first sight really happens!!! So I was used to driving performance cars for business and covering significantly more than average mileage without a hitch,

It seems you and I also have something in common, red Italian motorbikes!!. We must exchange a few more details on that point, by PM perhaps?

I had a letter from Porsche GB today confirming what they said on the 'phone to me. My point back to them will be that the component I am questioning has defects and grinding that were present at the point of manufacture and as such is not a component covered by their statement "it is an unfortunate fact that failures may occur within mechanical components at some point during a vehicle's lifetime". My argument is that the component was faulty and was subject to grinding/peening at the time of manufacture and therefore should not have been fitted in the first place. It also shows fractures as you will have seen from the photos, which you would not expect from a non-moving part. We have legislation here called "The Sale of Goods Act, 1979" which covers a product's "fitness for purpose" for 6 years from the date of purchase. As I don't believe the crank cradle was fit for the purpose it was designed for because of the fractures and the grinding, which I'm sure caused the flaking metal that we discovered, I will use this legislation to base my further arguments on.

Anyway I'll keep the topic updated with further developments.

Best regards

John

I made another very useful contact yesterday and took the faulty crank cradle to show him. He noticed that the metal was flaking off one part and I've attached two photos to show this. I'm now more convinced that the metal that was found in the sump was off this particular part. Whether it was the cause of the misfire we'll never know but I doubt it was. He also said that the grind marks in my earlier posts would definitely have been done at the factory. It looks like they were trying to grind off some material from the casting process.

Also you will see from the other attached photo that another part of the cradle is showing fractures in the surface metal which I'm sure in time would have gotten more severe and flaked off as well.

My thoughts are now that it's probably a good thing that the engine was dismantled to discover this. If it the msifire had been identified and cured without engine dismantling, more metal could have broken off and caused a major engine failure whilst I was on the motorway or other fast road.

Given the evidence I've accrued, I'll write/e-mail to the Director of Engineering or equivalent in Stuttgart and see what response I can get from the Quality Control angle.

Best regards

John

Hi Peter,

I spoke to Annette Barbara Wilke in Stuttgart today and as I suspected she cannot overrule Porsche GB's decision but did take the time to listen and apologise.

I also asked about getting an analysis of the cracks and score marks on the crank cradle and an explanation as why the engine suffered the symptoms with misfiring etc. She confirmed that this wasn't normal practice but if I wanted to put my request in writing and agree to pay the costs of any further analysis they would consider it.

I can understand Porsche's position regarding goodwill outside of warranty as if they are too flexible in this regard it reduces the value of extended warranty and that wouldn't please those owners who have taken out such cover.

So the bottom line is I've ordered an exchange engine this afternoon for delivery in 7 days which comes with 2 year's parts warranty and common sense says buy the extended warranty for the other items that are coverable. The OPC gave me a 10% discount as goodwill from them. I don't think they'll get anything back from Porsche to cover this. This make the price £7,326 including tax. I've got all the labour for engine removal and fitting new one on top to cover as well.

The way I see the situation is that I probably would have had had some preventative work done on the engine at some point anyway given its high mileage so I'm just spending the money (or possibly less) than that would have cost but paying it early and getting a new engine with warranty. Can't wait to get it back on the road now.

Thanks to all who have commented.

Best regards

John

Just had the feedback from the OPC. Porsche GB are rejecting any claim and refusing any goodwill and are returning the faulty crank cradle to the OPC on the basis that: -

1. My car is not currently at an OPC (although the OPC did say this was a weak point of argument)

2. The mileage at 118,000 is outside of their goodwill limit of 80,000 and is excessive for the car's age (my response was to ask if in that case then they were saying that the car is not fit for purpose as an everyday business car doing around 35,000 miles per year?)

3. The car may have been on trackdays and hence subjected to abnormal conditions/performance (the nearest the car's been to a track is the car park at Donington Park)

4. The car has no extended warranty (true and accepted)

My objectives are to understand why the one half of the crank cradle has the faults that it has anyway and I would at least expect an explanation from Porsche if nothing else. Also I want to pursue the "fit for purpose" angle with as senior Porsche person that I can meet with, as I'm in the area of Porsche GB's HQ on Thursday. I'd also like to get a "yes" or "no" as to whether the problem/s would have been fixed under extended warranty anyway. That way I think all of us can learn and understand the true value of extended warranty. I'm also going to seek some advice from any relevant Consumer Advice organisations and see what useful info I can obtain.

Any other suggestions?

Regards

John

Crank cradle taken to OPC on Saturday. Should be delivered to Porsche Cars GB 9th January. We'll know more when they've inspected the parts. I'm preparing myself for the fact that the parts may have to go back to Stuttgart.

Rgds

John

Lee,

Your experience with Porsche Customer Service is not disimilar to mine in the UK. Their standard response is that they do not speak directly with Customers on a deep technical level, they manage problem situations through the OPC network. I have tried escalating my original misfire + metal in the sump problem to the Porsche Cars GB Customer Services Director and also tried a "face-to-face" approach as I'm often in the area where Porsche GB HQ is, though with no positive result so far (although this did work when I had a split coolant hose out of warranty cover). I wasn't too disappointed with the situation as the engine wasn't in a dismantled state and I couldn't have provided the OPC involved with the photos and faulty parts they now have.

When the original misfire occurred, the OPC I bought the car from wanted £2,500.00+TAX just to take the engine out as they thought it was a broken valve spring, which we've since proved it wasn't. The specialist I use has a very good and long working relationship with that OPC and hence I decided to stick with that route. I admit that we haven't discussed the cost of the dismantling work he's done so far but his labour cost is £45 per hour compared to the £105-£130 per hour of Porsche OPCs. He's also very customer-oriented and his principle is to limit the costs to his cusomers to retain goodwill and relationships.

My suggestion would be to seek a meeting with the OPC that has your car including the Services Manager/Director and or Dealer Principal and try and achieve a level of empathy to then persuade PCNA to be a little more flexible. I'm not sure whether you purchased the car from the OPC where it now is, but if so I'd get the orginal sales person involved in that meeting as well. Maybe you could conference call to PCNA at that time or establish a convernient time to do so. Also I'm happy for you to use any section of my topic as a help and I would also try to obtain some evidence where other owners have had out of warranty successes. Failing that do you have a local specialist that could help you keep the costs down?

My current approach is to be as helpful with info and evidence as I can be to all concerned, get the original sales person "on-side" and to comply with the Porsche fault escalation procedures for the time being. Although with this problem starting in early November and the fact that I've been driving my wife's car since then for my business commitments, you can guess she 's getting very :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :censored: by now!!!

I delivered the suspect crank cradle to the OPC on Saturday and they will then need to send these to Porsche GB's office for their response. Given the high mileage of my car and the fact that they probably wouldn't have seen a similar car/mileage/problem situation before, I'm hoping that as this may be breaking new ground for them, I'll get a sympathetic response as they wouldn't have an similar example to refer to.

Best regards

John

Hi Graham,

As the problem you describe: -

1. Can be started and stopped by turning on and off the A/C system

2. Doesn't vary with air circulation fan speed

3. Sounds like a bearing rumbling

would back up my suggestion that it's the intake fan to suck air in for A/C cabin environment sensing function.

When I had my symptoms the sound seemed to come from inside the dashboard somewhere between the driver's end of the passenger side airbag cover and the central binnacle for the A/C controls, radio etc.

If you put your ear to the round aperture on the passenger side of the dashboard (as shown in attached photo)can you hear the sound more clearly?

Rgds

John

I had similar symptoms (although not continuous) and the OPC and I believe it was the small intake fan for the A/C system sensor on the passenger side for sensing the interior environment. The thought was some foam or trim behind the dashboard was catching on the blades. The sound was reminiscent of small ball bearings rattling in a plastic container. I just turned up the volume on the CD/radio to compensate!!!

The problem seems to have fixed itself otherwise I think it woud have been dashboard removal.

Hope this helps.

Rgds

John

Tomorrow I'm taking suspect parts to the OPC where I bought the car from for their lead technician to inspect and I'll upate with the results.

Does anyone know if I can edit the topic name to reflect a more accurate situation?

Rgds

John

Only Moderators or an admin can change a topic title "after the fact". I have edited the title here.

Thanks Loren,

Much appreciated.

Kind regards

John

Tomorrow I'm taking suspect parts to the OPC where I bought the car from for their lead technician to inspect and I'll upate with the results.

Does anyone know if I can edit the topic name to reflect a more accurate situation?

Rgds

John

Lee,

We may have some common ground in the engine rebuild/replacement question and what Porsche's actions may be, if you've seen my topic Misfire 2003 996 C4S 118,000 miles. http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=11615

What started out as a misfire moving from one bank of cylinders to the other which couldn't be diagnosed with certainty, has now progressed to a full engine dismantle and tomorrow I'm taking the parts in the photos in the topic to the OPC where I bought the car from to progress matters.

As was stated in the replies to your topic, I think it's important to have a good degree of photographic evidence to encourage and secure all reasonable assistance whilst seeking a problem identification and resolution.

Good luck with your situation.

Best regards

John

You can't blame all us Yanks for my extremely poor spelling. I take full responsibility for those gaffs.

No blame intended, only joking. I confess to looking up the Maserati web site to make sure I was spelling it correctly anyway.

Is it correct about the full tank of gas to ensure correct settings??

Best regards

John

On a positive note, Porsche GB have confirmed that I can get the car covered by extended warranty for a year before it gets to 125,000 miles, after the faults have been found and fixed and the car inspected and passed by an OPC to the Extended Warranty standard inspection.

Does anyone have any experience of the Porsche policy regarding physically inspecting a problem car to determine the nature of the problem and whether they will only do an inspection of the car (or engine/engine parts as in my case) at an OPC and not if it's at an independent specialist as mine is at the moment.

Rgds

John

Thanks for the info guys.

BTW - I don't think they sell petrol here in the States, can I use gas instead? :D

Yeah, for sure. It also looks like you guys spell Aston Martin and Maserati differently as well!!! :D :D :D

Rgds

John

2002 C4S coupe, USA model, standard suspension, totally stock.

Had an alignment done last week when I had new tires installed. I requested -1.0 degree front camber. When I picked the car up I was told that the most they could get was -0.1 degree per side. Is this typical, or should I try another shop? This shop specializes in exotics, Astin-Martin, Mazeratti etc.

FYI - They were able to get -1.5 degree in the rear.

TIA for the advice.

I also believe that Porsche recommend that when any alignment checks or adjustments are done, these should be with full tank of petrol.

Rgds

John

Thanks for your response. The grinding/fettling of casting seams was favoured by the specialist as well. However my thoughts are that they are too random to be factory-based marks as I would have expected anything done at the factory to be far neater.

The OPC that I purchased the car from commented that they had experienced swarf being trapped in tappets causing a misfire to move between different cylinder banks, but that was on a new car. They'd not seen swarf in a car with the high mileage that mine has done.

Rgds

John

Hi Eben,

Many thanks for your comments.

When I saw the engine last week I noted there were some other gouges/grind marks on another part of the engine. I went back again today and took some more photos for comment. The photos are the same part and photographed at both the left and right ends i.e. there is gouging/grinding at both ends. We're not sure whether these are manufacturing marks or anything problem-related. I did notice that on one photo there is evidence of the metal cracking/flaking.

In relation to your question, I can't say which of the two crank block halves are upper and lower (or right and left) but I'm wondering if the one half that shows the gouges & cracks fits into the other part shown in the latest photos and that there is a relationship between these marks.

There are no broken spring valves or anything else that the specialist has seen as broken when dismantling the engine so we can't relate anything back to the metal that was found in the sump yet.

Hopefully the relevant people at Porsche Cars GB will respond soon and I can advise you of further progress.

Best regards

John

If you are talking about the wear marks on the (aluminum looking) bearings - they don't look bad to me. But for the cost of a new set of bearing I always replace them whenever I split an engine case. Just not worth tearing the engine apart again in 20,000 miles. Those bearing come out and are easily replaced.

If the case is cracked at a non-critical point it can be welded (at a specialty shop) - but if the crack is at a critical bearing point then case should be replaced. The one picture looks to me like the latter. - a main bearing support is cracked.

I would like to hear Porsche's opinion on an engine that shows very little wear on the main bearings yet the bearing support(s) are cracked. This should not happen IMHO.

Hi Loren,

Thankyou for your input.

My concern isn't with the semi-circular bearing inserts but I'm focusing on the darker colour metal. Attached is a photo showing the difference in the profiles of the dark metal sections in one half of the crank block where the damage has occurred (the other half looks fine) i.e. some have no elongations into the alloy sections, some have one and some have 3. This is quite different to the other half of the block (see previous photos). Is this normal and do you know where there might be other photos to compare with?

I hope that we can get a reasonbly quick response from PCGB after the holidays and get some expertise on the situation.

Happy New Year to all and thanks to everyone for viewing and commenting on the topic.

Best regards

John

Looks like we're into very a interesting topic and I like your suggestion.

I did note that the the profile of the insert on the other side of the indvidual section was not the same as the side showing either one "handle" or two "handles" i.e. the other side was similar to the other half of the crank block which had no "handles" at all. Therefore these "handles" do not span the thickness of the sections. (Hope I've explained myself adequately, photos can say so much more!!!). If the inserts are there to provide strength and higher performance characteristics (as I understand the earlier all-alloy crank blocks were problematical), wouldn't they be forged rather than cast?

I tried various web searches for other crank block pictures but didn't come up with anything positive yet. After searching different links and discovering different part names, I question whether the right term for the parts in the photos is crank block, crankcase or crank cradle. Any thoughts?

Rgds

John

The specialist cut open the oil filter after he had found a small flake of metal (possibly bearing metal i.e "white metal" or Bebbitt metal) in the sump. Nothing else was found in the filter.

Also did you notice that the profiles of the inserts differed between the two halves in the thumbnail photos? I can't see why there should be "handles" in one half and not in the other.

Rgds

John

Hi again,

Glad the better photo gave you more info to assess. Any thoughts on what appear to be cracks in the darker sections? The indie hasn't mentioned finding any broken springs which was one of the early potential suggestions.

Thanks for your comments on the car as well.

With regard to the car itself it's my first Porsche, I was driving a M3 at the time I saw it. I had taken some time out for lunch (which is unusual for me as I often use the time to travel between clients, catching up on e-mails etc.) and chose to look around that OPC. My first words to the salesman were "I'll be honest with you I'm not buying but is it OK just to browse?" Just shows how wrong you can be!!!

The combination of the Cobalt Blue paintwork, the red calipers and the alloys had me hooked. More importantly my wife loved it too (she hated the M3 for some reason). It was their ex-demonstrator and as I sold the M3 myself I got a £500 off their asking price.

I'll do some more web searching to see if I can find some more info on the inserts in the crank block and try and post some links if I find anything useful.

Rgds

John

Good luck, I hope all goes well from here.

Rgds

John

Sigh....

My beloved 2002 Targa had a catastrophic engine failure two nights ago. I was driving along and it sounded like someone had put a bowling ball in a clothes dryer.

Porsche service at my local joint confirmed my worst fears: my engine is gone.

They say that even though it is out of warranty, PCNA may cover half (the car has all of 18,500 miles on it). Half is still a lot of green.

So I plunged through the past service history from the prior owner and found that in 2004, with about 12,500 on the clock, the car had its RMS and intermediate shaft seals replaced due to an oil leak. (The service was done, luckily, not at the same dealership where she sits today, lonely and powerless.)

Do you think that a botched job on that could have lead to engine failure 6,000 miles later? If so, I will use it to argue they should give me a whole new engine.

tmc

Sorry to hear about your bad news. I hope you get a fair reaction and solution from PCNA. I'd also be interested to see if the inspection after the engine's been dismantled, reveals any similar faults as shown in my thread on my misfire problem.

My fingers are crossed for you.

Best regards

John

Btw, could you take a picture of those marks from right angle, possibly with macro setting, but lighting kept at a low sweeping angle? Some of us here with some machining/milling experience could have a bet if those are finishing moves from the manufacturing process or impact humps because of a loose part running amok inside your engine...

Hi again,

I really appreciate your last 2 posts, thankyou.

Regarding the difference in sound, when the problem first appeared at tickover, as you described the tone was different between the nearside exhaust affected by the misfire and the offside exhaust which seemed unaffected by any problem. Revving the engine and driving the car a short distance sounded and felt OK. This first situation resulted in a "coil pack failure" reading from the diagnostics done at the 1st OPC I took it to and so I had all 6 coil packs changed in consideration of the mileage and condition of the other 5 coil packs.

When the CEL light recurred within 24 hours of the coil pack change, a second PIWIS test 4 days later at the OPC I bought the car from 3 years ago, indicated a misfire on clinder 6. Their advice was that it could be a broken valve spring and they estimated a labour cost of £2,500 + Tax to get the engine out and tell me whether they were right or not.

When the problem switched to the offside exhaust and associated cylinders the tone became more like a tugboat "chugging" sound accompanied by "popping". Revving the engine at that stage resulted in a "spluttering" tone. I tried reversing the car a short distance off my driveway but the misfire seemed too severe to risk any distance driving, so I called roadside assistance and had the vehicle towed to the independent about 20 miles away from my home.

He did the usual emissions reading and found the offside exhaust at around 820+.

Looking at the randomness of the marks and the fact that there appears to be a crack in the steel insert as shown in my first photo of the 3 thumbnails, I don't think its finishing moves but next time I'm over at the indie, I'll take the camera anyway and try to provide the type of photo you requested. I'll also try and attach a higher quality photo to this post if the file size is OK with the web site settings along with a photo of the car from the showroom. It looked great and you'll probably appreciate why I bought it.

Thanks and regards

John