deilenberger

On the other forum where this topic has been active (http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/cayenne-958/287782-2011-cayenne-transfer-case-replaced.html) there has been some discussion of getting a base virgin sample of oil tested by Blackstone Labs, then getting our samples of used oil tested to see what changed.

Problem we have is I'm a bit cheapish - and don't feel like paying the $60 or so it would cost to buy a bottle of the original fill oil that Porsche used just to have the test done on it.  That oil had a PN of 000-043-301-36. If anyone has any of that oil - unused - perhaps the remainder from doing a change and having some left over - I hope I could talk Blackstone into doing a free baseline run that we could compare our used samples to - and get some idea of what's going on.  If that happens - I might also send along the bit of remaining oil from the new PN Porsche spec fluid (that ends in '63") so we can see what (if anything) changed between the two fluids.

Anyone?

I'm going to try to gather a bit of info - both here and 6-speed-on-line. Please only report your failure in one forum, I'd rather avoid duplicates.

Chris,

I am too - and interested in any correlation between climate and failure mileage.  You're in DFW, from memory - a rather warm part of the US - especially in summer.  Your problem started at how many miles?

BTW - I believe we discussed the change in the transfer case vent. The shop foreman also pointed to a revised "slinger" they installed on the lower output (to the front end). Looking at the air deflector I can understand now why Porsche is doing this. IF you were fording water deep enough to reach the air deflector - it is going to throw water up at the front-end output shaft on the transfer case. That in turn is going to spin the water off - and enough will go up above the case that it could drip back into the top mounted air-vent.  Porsches answer - reroute the vent and change the slinger on the shaft so it doesn't throw the water off.

Unfortunately it did not appear possible to re-route this vent with the TC in the car, at least not without dropping it down (which would require disconnecting the two driveshafts going to the TC, and dropping the cross-member below the TC. Not practical.

I don't see this as a huge concern. I saw no sign of water contamination in my drained oil. No one here has mentioned any water contamination in their oil. I don't think it's a huge issue if you don't regularly do off-roading and stream fording in your Cayenne. Driving across a rugged parking lot is not likely to cause oil contamination.

18 minutes ago, pastorom said:

Sorry, missed this in my original post. I used Redline D4 ATF for the TC fluid. 

Might I suggest you use Ravenol (talked about above) or gasp.. the Porsche stuff (with the new PN - from Sunset Porsche web-order about $45 + $12 shipping.) People have had success using Ravenol - the Redline is IMHO - an unknown (even if they do recommend it - I have been disappointed in some of their other recommended oils - like the transmission lube they recommended for an E46/M3 BMW..)

pastorom (Name?)

What oil did you refill it with?  There may be some difference. Back in the old days of mechanical limited slip rear-drives - BMW ones with limited slip required either special lubricants, or an additive (GM made one for Corvettes that was widely used in other vehicles) - to prevent the stiction sort of noises/feeling you're describing in the limited slip clutch pack.  The transfer case clutch pack is much the same as the limited slip ones were - a multiplate oil soaked clutch.

I suspect some of the transfer-case oils may work better with the multiplate clutch in the Porsche transfer case than others. Hence my curiosity on what oil you used.

And if you were facing TC replacement anyway - you would have nothing to loose by trying the GM additive package (most NAPA auto-parts stores keep it in stock.)

3 hours ago, the head said:

Changed the fluid again today after 2 weeks and glad I did.  I'll post pics later on.  Only a slightly burned smell but the oil was dark brown.  So if you change the fluid I recommend a follow-up flush a week or two later.  Still running perfect!

Thanks MUCH for the followup. I imagine some debris was still trapped in the clutch assembly. It may take yet another oil change to fully flush it out.  I'd wait a few thousand miles for that one.

Answered in the thread you created on RennList.

http://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-cayenne-forum/981828-used-cayenne-purchase.html#post14059746

2 hours ago, Ddavidoff said:

Make sure you can loosen the fill plug, before you start the drain.

That's twice he's been told. Hopefully.. he's paying attention (it's a real PITA to find you're not able to remove the fill plug after draining the TC.. but - you only make that mistake once.)

BTW - Steph - when you're done - please post your results here. I'd like to keep a running total on success with this.

steph - you may want to read:

Read the entire thread actually.

It is - as they say "a piece of cake" to do the job (especially if you have a lift) - both fill and drain are on the backside of the transfer case. You do want some sealant to put on the plugs before refilling them. You do want to remove the fill first (I hope I don't have to explain why..) And you do want to use a torque wrench (small 3/8" one or even 1/4" one - 12ft/lbs isn't much torque at all) to tighten them up.

#1 is fill, #2 is drain.

Very nice Chris. Please keep us informed on how well it holds up, and I'll be quite interested to hear what Blackstone has to say..

Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out.  My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid.

I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

3 hours ago, ChrisFu said:

Well count me in, thanks to this thread I am fairly sure we have a failing transfer case on my wife's recently purchased 1-owner 958 V6 6MT (105k miles - her dream car since shes a manual lover like me and cant buy a decent stick SUV anymore).

 

As I was unfamiliar with Cayenne drivetrain issues, my research made me believe our symptoms were that of the 955/957 cardan shaft which is a thankfully much less expensive fix. Reading the descriptions here and I am almost certain its transfer case related instead.

 

Slow speed sharp turns result in what feels like a truck stuck in 4WD low maneuvering in a parking lot, a significant binding and noisy feeling. In a straight line the effect is less pronounced, more of a thumping hesitation in 3rd and 4th gear during harder acceleration, however essentially undetectable in 1st/2nd and 5th/6th.

 

I had planned on taking it in tomorrow for a diagnositc at a local Porsche shop, but now will try a fluid change (Ravenol TF-0870) tomorrow instead

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3NWHGHN360KCD

 

Will report back with any results. 

 

Any tricks to the fluid swap? Seemed pretty straight forward in the service manual: Elevate car, remove top plug, remove bottom plug, drain until empty, then refill.

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds.

What year is your wife's Cayenne?  Just curious.

And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is..  funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?"  I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix.  Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem.  Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem.

BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair.

BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

20 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

I'm currently away from the shop for a few days, so no, I cannot help you at this time, but perhaps someone else can chime in.

There is certainly no rush on it - I'm just curious if there is ANY documentation on what the values mean, and where they come from. I had assumed the V40 measurement was done as a resistance measurement through the oil - more metal in the oil = more wear, but now I'm not so sure.  Since they do give a max value as an indication the oil should be changed - it doesn't seem like it would be just a calculated value - that could be made mileage dependent fairly easily.  But - the fact that they have you reset it to 0 after changing the oil - almost makes me think it's calculating the torque (a measurement of force) that has gone through the transfer case.

Mystery. That is the only mention of that value in the service manual, and none of the other values are ever mentioned.

5 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

There are factory spec ranges for each value that are designed to be used as wear characteristics to determine when service is required, much like useful tread depth on tires.

Can you perhaps share what those values are?

The Head - are you doing the 2nd oil change with the same oil?  I know on another forum you mentioned you've been driving it all week - hard - and have not experienced any of the symptoms it formerly exhibited.  And I seem to recall you used the Mutol listed as compatible by Pelican?

2 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

Are you sure that your tool is capable of reading these values?

It reads them - but no real explanation of what they mean or what's acceptable.

Here is a text version of the data it reports:

I believe the PN is the same as the older plugs - starts with 955.. but - in looking at photos of it on Pelican's website, it looks like a simple threaded plug with some sealant on the threads. I would guess some Teflon tape pipe sealant will work just fine, and since the plugs are around $20/each - I believe I'll be reusing mine.

3 hours ago, the head said:

 I didn't go very far but did drive long enough for the jerkiness to manifest itself as usual.  I'll post an update later this week.  Hoping for the best!

You were experiencing symptoms? 

I'd love to have gotten a wear indicator reading on your old oil. I can read this with the iCarScan, and the factory service manual gives a maximum value.

This is what the manual says:

WM 0335IN DIAGNOSTIC MAINTENANCE: RESETTING DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM AND
SERVICE INTERVAL (CAYENNE, CAYENNE S, CAYENNE S E-HYBRID, CAYENNE
TURBO, CAYENNE (3.0), CAYENNE GTS & CAYENNE TURBO S) > RESETTING
SERVICE INTERVAL > READING OUT TRANSFER GEAR WEAR INTEGRATOR

The transmission wear integrator oil must be checked during every intermediate
maintenance/maintenance.
1. Start PIWIS Tester II 9818 and follow the instructions on the Tester.
2. Select the vehicle type and start the PIDT.
3. Select the All-wheel menu.
4. Select the Actual values, input signals menu.
5. Select the T_wear integrators menu. Press [F12] to continue.
6. Read out the value for V40 transmission wear integrator - oil .
    If this value is greater than 145 kWh , the oil in the transfer gear must be changed →
    Changing oil for transfer gear. If the value is lower, no further action is required.
7. If the oil in the transfer gear has been changed, the value must be deleted and reset to zero by
pressing [F8]

FWIW - I have no idea why this measurement is in kiloWatt hours (kWh) - http://www.energylens.com/articles/kw-and-kwh since that's a measurement of energy

24 minutes ago, Quickster2 said:

Just to be clear my local Indie shop used BMW X-fer case fluid in the change a few hundred miles ago, Vehicle mileage at 65K. I believe this was the 1st change. Regardless, at 70K miles, with the next oil change DIY, I will go with the new OEM fluid per Don's update. My fluid drained relatively clear with no abnormal smells at this time per the Tech. New "superseded" P/N fluid on order at this time. 

The BMW stuff is identical to the Porsche original spec oil. And it seems much more readily available (but not any cheaper.)

I'm thinking of taking a sample when I change mine and have Blackstone look at it. I'll have to contact them and see if they have any virgin samples to compare it to..

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:08 AM, 958S said:

I believe you would want to use a hand siphon pump (very cheap at auto store) so you can get it filled properly and probably one bottle would do, but I would like to hear from someone that did it to confirm.

One of these makes short work of getting every drop to where it belongs:  http://a.co/10ERX9J

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 6:06 AM, Quickster2 said:

I assume you need to buy 2 quarts to fully fill the x-fer case since one may not be able to completely empty the container during the fill? Thx

Rated capacity is 0.85L. It pretty much sits mostly in the bottom of the chain case part until it starts moving then the chain drags some up to the top where it splashes around and lubricates the planetary gear and the clutch assembly.  I've found the Porsche capacity listings are pretty accurate (my engine takes exactly 10 quarts of oil- which is 9.5L (9.46353, but who's counting..)

An update - this is also posted on 6-speed-on-line, so if you browse the 958 forum there, you may have seen it already. But in the hopes of bringing some technical activity to RENNTECH - here goes:

In one thread somewhere (?) a chap showed a photo of his repair bill for the new transfer case ("X-case" from now on) he received. He mentioned that Porsche had changed the design and that included a modified X-case vent that vented up higher.

On his repair order was the PN of the vent - 958-301-047-10. Available from Sunset Porsche for $28.71 (plus shipping.) I thought I'd drop by my FLD* and give them a shot at it, and see if I could glom any more info.

Turns out it was a good day to do that since they just finished replacing a X-case on a 958 /S - and had the old one on the shop floor waiting to get boxed up and returned to Porsche.

What I found out:

- The X-cases are still made by the same manufacturer. Indeed - the ones available are generally REBUILT ones done by that manufacturer. So - same basic design.

- The vent IS a change. On the existing X-Case the vent comes right out of the top of the large cylindrical part of the case (where the clutch lives) and is capped by one of the rather common fish-mouth sort of rubber caps that Porsche so loves (they are a sort of 1-way device - at least supposed to be for moisture. Maybe.) This cap just slips over a small hose sort of fitting that threads into the top of the case. The idea being that air can pass through the fish-mouth part of it

Took forever to find this:


 

The old transfer case was right there - so I got to look closely at it. As part of the kit - the fitting on top of the case is unscrewed and a new fitting screwed in that connects to a corrugated plastic tube (Porsche is SO fond of these..) The plastic tube is then run up the firewall into the engine compartment - with all sorts of neat fittings and clips and tie-off points. The idea being - move the input to the vent to a dry heated area.

Problem is - the clearance isn't there to do this replacement with the X-Case in the vehicle.

BUT - my thinking is - simply remove the rubber cap/seal - put some high-temperature teflon tubing over the end of the existing fitting and run that up into the engine compartment. Come up with some way of using the existing rubber-seal on the end of that tubing.

So - that's the plan.

I'll be doing this while changing the X-case fluid. The shop-lead mentioned that the fluid is spec'd as "Lifetime" fill - and I just pointed to the X-case sitting on the shop floor - that apparently had exceeded it's lifetime. He agreed that a change of fluid is probably a good idea.

Next challenge - which fluid?

There is 000-043-301-36OEM - which was "superseded" by 000-043-305-63OEM. Cost at the dealer was around $75. Cost from Sunset Porsche is $47. I gave the dealer a chance to make the sale - but the difference is simply too much, even figuring I'll have to pay shipping from Sunset. The first oil is also available from Pelican for less $$, but I think I'm going with the new oil.

Oh - one other change the shop lead mentioned they make to the new X-case - is a new slinger on the output spline shaft, apparently to toss water differently from how it's tossed now if the vehicle is driven in heavy rain or water.

They were told that the "fix" for the cases is to keep the fluid from getting contaminated - and that's the reason for these modifications.

I'll try to remember to take some photos.

* FLD = Friendly Local Dealership