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juankimalo

The ultimate IMS UPGRADE = ENGINE LIFEGUARD

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Hi guys: :thumbup:

I'm anxious to tell you one of teh most important revolution we can get to make our M96 engines eternal. Forget the IMS issue. All of us know that there are some ways to reinforce the IMS, but any of them are like this: the ultimate solution to prevent a total engine failure due to a IMS issue.

In our spanish spoken forum, Soloporsche.com , we're very proud to have a really Porsche expert engineer who developed this fantastic and awesome idea. Our friend Rober, has designed a real solution:

Double bearing, large bearing support, reinforced external piece, specific compound material seals (triple advanced seal solution to avoid oil leaks)....

02.jpg

15xkh8n.jpg

Our friend Rober created a web to explain how the kit works

(it will be in english / german next week)

http://www.insaroims.com/index.php

An hybrid ceramic compound bearing was used to achive a high endurance life

3 years warranty, excellent h.q. materials, but ......

... imagine that It could fail... the bearing could fail... what happens to the engine...????

Don't cry!!!! :nono: There is a second special bearing to work as an engine lifeguard

255lzxu.jpg

What do you think guys?

IMPORTANT: I don't sell anything. I don't have any commercial interest in this kit. I only want to share with you one the best advanced solutions for our engines.

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It is always a positive when people are coming up with innovative solutions. The fact that he is willing to stand behind his product WITH a 3 year warranty speaks volume about his confidence in the solution, especially if he gets a U.S. distributor. clapping.gif

Will he be offering a complete kit with the extraction tool for the old bearing?

What is the anticipated price for the kit?

Looking forward to more information.

Regards, Maurice.

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It is always a positive when people are coming up with innovative solutions. The fact that he is willing to stand behind his product WITH a 3 year warranty speaks volume about his confidence in the solution, especially if he gets a U.S. distributor. clapping.gif

Will he be offering a complete kit with the extraction tool for the old bearing?

What is the anticipated price for the kit?

Looking forward to more information.

Regards, Maurice.

Yes, he offers extracting tool

The prices are in the web, but in €

Available in english next week

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Let's look at that: The LN engineering unit sells for about $595 (retail) and is projected to last 40-50K miles (about the typical clutch life in manual M96 cars). So you would go through three LN units in about 120-15K miles, at a cost of $1785. Most of the cars I see in my shop do less than 10K miles a year, and many do less than 2K. Using 6.5K as a very generous "average mileage" for the cars I see, and 40K for the expected time to replacement for the LN unit (at clutch replacement time), you would be replacing the LN unit (on average) every 6 years or so, or three times over around 18 years; well beyond the life expectancy of these cars. This Spanish unit costs nearly the same amount as three LN units for this one unit, and has a "warrantee" for three years............and you view this as "fair"?

I would be the first to say the design is "interesting", but the warranty, and the fact it is from a small foreign manufacturer does not impress me, nor does the rather extreme pricing……….

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Sorry,

Wasn't aware of the LN price. Just seemed fair to me because I spent $16k once replacing a :censored: M96 engine. Didn't mean to get you so upset:rolleyes:

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I am not upset, I just ran the numbers and this product just seemed more than a bit excessively priced............

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I am not upset, I just ran the numbers and this product just seemed more than a bit excessively priced............

IMHO excessive is a good term when $1700 is being asked for what is essentially a bearing.

Regards, Maurice.

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I appreciate everyones expertise on this.. Whether it's too expensive or not... It's good to see other folks coming up with solutions for these engines shortcomings.

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As I couldn't answer any of the technical questions, here I copy/paste an extended explanation that Rober (Insaro) posted in other forum to response other IMS upgrade Kit manufacturer:

First of all good evening- and calmness. Here we're to be able to discuss about a problem solution. In the following paragraphs I'll try to explain all the doubts you would have concerning to Insaro reinforcement Kits.

Regarding to M96 engine knowledge, I'm sensible to know that there will be lots of people with a great experience in this particular issue, for instance yourself Jake. A few of us have learnt thanks to your threads and experience.

I have a huge experience on the field of design, finite elements analysis, tridimensional model generating, and big machines, robotized systems research and developing in the field of iron and steel sector, that means is a good platform. I hope you could believe me Jake, 'cause there are very complex systems with efforts and working atmosphere, with a huge difficult component more than a M96 engine could never arise. I could tell you lots of them but, as an example I can show you this robot (by the way is working in your country):

desbobinadorarcelor.jpg

I'm a person who is used to place myself in an engine, a processing equipment industrial plant, an industrial oven, etc, trying to study and develop solutions to improve, upgrade at this point. This is my speciality, where I hit on the nail: to anylize and improve the quality of elements. That's why though I'm not an specific specialist on M96 engines, that question is not relevant to disqualify me, to be ready to offer my little contribution to Porsche world (I hope you don't worry about it Jake). I can assure from my deep heart that my only purpose is always to grow, and evolve over a problem root.

The main question is that Porsche enthusiastics could know the product, its improvements, and after that they could choose. It would be a great benefit for this community to have several choices.

Once I cleared these things, we can go to directly to study the piece. I like simplify ideas, 'cause It is the best way to interpret a problem solution

Porsche has a design problem at present, ok. You make an analysis and contribute to solve the problem, generating a mechanized piece over a melting piece design. Then you add it to an hybrid bearing. The improvent is good, but I don't consider it as a solution. I hope this argument wouldn't disturb you Jake. I say it with all repects to you.

To solve the problem is the same as erase the problem. I always think that anything is forever, anything will work as eternal, so in the likelyhood of an hybrid bearing failure... what could happen? I know It's too difficult but not impossible.

At this point we place a first step: to look for a problem solution which means that if the IMS fails the engine could be intact, 'alive'.

If the main bearing fails, we have another point to lean the IM shaft on. The principal aim is avoid the shatf taking down, and keep the chains on. But the most important is that the driver could realize the problem.

Inside the piece, we looked for a new design completely new and never similar to Porsche OEM one. We consider that It's a wrong design, so if you continue making something similar we'll finally fall down at the same point: a total disaster. We begin with a holder piece 3 times increased than the original one. So we can assure that It is holding the IMS more efficiently, and with less posibility to generate vibrations in its spinning work.

Besides, we reinforce the piece in a better steel alloy. Remember that Porsche's bearing support is melted, and if you want to increase this stiffness, you'll need to begin with a more structural steady piece designed, with less arris, and stronger to take the new generated efforts

We go for a 20 mm bearing support, instead of the 6-8 mm current, where the bearing is perfectly placed and supported and not a 57% as you can check in the current market pieces. As you said It's very important to make a deep study of a system which is supporting a bearing, especially when It's generating a pile of working frequencies. We humans are placed over two feet, 100% of support. If we'd lift a leg, then we'll be placed in a single foot, just 50% of support.. Currently, Porsche's bearing and yours are placed and supported only in a 57%. The rest is placed in a traction working shaft, with a 5% gap/hence/fedge So the result is that more than half bearing is suported in a non steady surface. This is not only my own appreciation, you can check it here:

rodd.jpg

IMHO this is an error, a serious error, to support a bearing in a mix way. It generate stabilty lack, a terrible lack of support just in the point where radial forces are being generated

Talking about lubrication, I must say that the main bearing is being lubricated by engine oil, obviously It is mounted without side covers.

The second bearing receives lubrication at the same time with engine oil with the centrifuge effect generated by the IMS spinning.

At present, there are no bearings which could suffer a failure being stopped and lubricated. Concerning to a probably main bearing failure and a working task for the secondary, the generated gap between the bearing and the internal shaft was calculated to produce a little alternative strain in the chains. That was thought to alert both hall sensors and produce an 'check engine light in your dashboard.

hallasensors.png

We did several studies checking different phase angles in the sensors, with different strain chains to analize where is the margin of fine working before offer error in the Motronic unit. We know very well the electronics as we are specialist in remapping since 1989. In this case we designed it to produce a little pitching in the bearing support and alert the driver that something wrong is happening.

Another important thing: this kit could save your life. Imagine thta you're driving in a sharp bend road and you decide to make a passing maneuver. Imagine that at this point, you suffer a IMS failure... Imagine that a truck comes to you ... but and you calculated the distance with your superb Porsche... you could die without power. Insaro don't leave you without power. You could continue driving without any problem and accelerating te same as before. Think about it...

As you well know, Porsche's Variocam system works with twim signals.

graficonj.png

A hall pushing time failure, will give you Check Engine Light, to alert you that the engine is failing, and in the likelyhood of a main bearing failure, the second bearing will produce a Christmas tree in the dash to prevent you that something wrong goes, and stop the engine.

The secondary bearing doesn't have the aim to last the whole life, nor lasting 1000 working hours. Its aim is avoid the IMS to take down producing a total disaster . This a contribution to solve the problem as we understand under our point of view Concerning to the doubts about the second bearing, I'll do a comparison to Porsche OEM bearing.

Porsche OEM bearing, as we know could make a good amount of miles but after that, and due to several things, finally could fail. Well, I'm going to show you Porsche OEM bearing endurance data, and after that our Insaro secondary bearing endurance data.

As you can see, besides being better than Porsche's one in all load capabilities, we include something very important: our secondary bearing can hold axis loads, and balls bearings mounted as main bearing do not.

Porsche OEM bearing Vs INSARO secondary bearing

rodamientos.png

I have no problem to show you original data from Manufacturer website if you don't believe any data posted here. They are joined in a table to appreciate directly and clear that Insaro's bearing exceeds more than 3 times lots of endurance aspects of Porsche's one. There's no way to doubt about its endurance.

These data made me think the following: If Porsche's bearing is able to last till 10 years working, Insaro's one will be capable to last 5 minutes working till you'd find a clear zone to stop your car and toe to your car to your mechanic. You'll get your car saved. The only thing would be to install a new piece, new oil, an so on, always better than a new engine. That's the target.

Besides we increased for 3 times the sealing capabilities. As you know your car could suffer IMS oil leaks. Our Insaro piece has 3 special Viton seals which make it impossible to leak.

Jake, we have so much safety and confidence in our product that is protected with an international patent and registered for the main markets in USA, Europe, Africa, Oceania, etc

We are so confident in our kits that we offer 3 year warranty. Not more we can add about safety in our job.

I don't like to critizice in an aggresive way any aspect of your design, and in fact, I could do it, but I'll just try to explain you INSARO qualities. It's better to show Porsche world all the positive things of the market kits and better to get in a primary school argue.

Concerning to the endurance, all the pieces were re-designed and we added all the improvements of steel compounds, thermal treatments, and they don't look similar in any aspect to Porsche OEM or LN design. By the way, the pusher tool is very similar to yours, jake, but you know there's nothing special to design a simple cylinder to place a bearing in.

Here you can see several videos comparing both pieces. I'd like to know where you can see any estructural weakness

I can assure you that if we begin talking about Porsche estrutural weakness, we'll need a lot of time for it

INSARO Vs Porsche

INSARO Shaft Vs Porsche Shaft

For me it`s very clear, this kit is not a copy, is a new development at 100%.Talking about prices is relative. Here is a contribution where you can see a problem completely solved. There is a NEW design, new improvements in avoiding oil leaks (triple protection seals), high quality materials, high quality bearings, and what's more: a problem solved. So, do you really can meassure how much the product cost?

Charles & Jake, I do all this work since the most repectable attitude to your company and your preventive solutions. I respect your brilliant career, and I expect that you could understand my words and explanations.

What I did is nothing similar to yours. It's other point of view looking for a definitive solution and I must say that there is an important difference between both products. There are no simitudes.

Kind regards

Roberto R.

INSARO Proyect Manager.

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Could you post a more detailed explanation at how this new bearing (or, more accurately, the two bearings) get lubrication...i.e, exactly where the oil comes from and how, and how much of it is distributed onto the bearings, under what conditions and at what rate?

Regards, Maurice.

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Let's look at that: The LN engineering unit sells for about $595 (retail) and is projected to last 40-50K miles (about the typical clutch life in manual M96 cars). So you would go through three LN units in about 120-15K miles, at a cost of $1785. Most of the cars I see in my shop do less than 10K miles a year, and many do less than 2K. Using 6.5K as a very generous "average mileage" for the cars I see, and 40K for the expected time to replacement for the LN unit (at clutch replacement time), you would be replacing the LN unit (on average) every 6 years or so, or three times over around 18 years; well beyond the life expectancy of these cars. This Spanish unit costs nearly the same amount as three LN units for this one unit, and has a "warrantee" for three years............and you view this as "fair"?

I would be the first to say the design is "interesting", but the warranty, and the fact it is from a small foreign manufacturer does not impress me, nor does the rather extreme pricing……….

If you account for labor of doing the LN 3 times, then the Isario is cheaper. Unless that is, you work for free :P The Isario is expensive, but comes with a warranty. And the LN aint cheap neither. IMO they're both overpriced. Com'on it's a bearing.

FWIW, I have no affiliation with either kit.

Edited by demonz

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I'm not terribly impressed. The flange appears cast, which is never a sign of a "cost no object" part (and if priced at $1700, it **** well better be). Further, I do not see why the flange have rivets in it. This "triple seal" that is so highly touted by its maker appears to just be a newer, factory seal. Then, the hex cap fasteners holding the second bearings.

Exactly how is there supposed to be a calibrated amount of "play" between the two bearings such that when the primary fails it allows the timing to shift "just enough" to trigger a CEL?

Since these both appear to be open bearings, and that given that the secondary one would be DEEP within the IMS tube, how exactly are these supposed to get lubrication?

I think I'll stick to the LN idea, and just replace it every time the gearbox is off.

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If you're going to regularly replace the bearing then why not just use the stock one? It's cheaper and many more people have used it than LN.

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On 12/25/2010 at 8:54 PM, Stefan said:

If you're going to regularly replace the bearing then why not just use the stock one? It's cheaper and many more people have used it than LN.

A couple of reasons: Porsche has used multiple design rear bearings over the years, each apparently superseding the previous unit, and eventually making the older one unavailable. As the different designs (single and double row) are not particularly interchangeable, this creates a problem for the end user. Porsche, however, has created an $800 solution: They now only make the IMS bearing available with the compatible shaft assembly, assuring it will fit. But as this current shaft assembly is the latest design bearing, which is too big in diameter to fit through the opening in the rear of the block, and is not compatible with the earlier shafts, the currently available OEM solution requires splitting the cases to install it………….

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Hi! . A post to explain my experience with Insaro 

I bought a 996 mk1 cabrio used, a fantastic car that also had the assurance that the ims of origin had been changed by a double kit of Insaro .. the warranty seemed total .. 
In short, the Insaro kit has failed with 40,000 kms .. although out of warranty period (I do not use the Porsche very often), you will agree that they are few kilometers, with the result you can imagine.

Yes, the same that had to protect the engine has disintegrated destroying everything in its path.
The worst thing is that after the breakdown from Insaro they did not take the phone to my mechanic and when they finally did they asked for a series of pieces to find out what could have happened ... we sent them and ... from there on only answer and impossible to get an answer. Unfortunately many others affected if they have responded in the forums explaining what we fear ... Insanity is missing since their kits began to give problems and has no interest in finding out why their kits fail. The opinion of my mechanic is that no matter how well sold the components are of very low quality and are bound to break.

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1 hour ago, Eric Auderset said:

Hi! . A post to explain my experience with Insaro 

I bought a 996 mk1 cabrio used, a fantastic car that also had the assurance that the ims of origin had been changed by a double kit of Insaro .. the warranty seemed total .. 
In short, the Insaro kit has failed with 40,000 kms .. although out of warranty period (I do not use the Porsche very often), you will agree that they are few kilometers, with the result you can imagine.

Yes, the same that had to protect the engine has disintegrated destroying everything in its path.
The worst thing is that after the breakdown from Insaro they did not take the phone to my mechanic and when they finally did they asked for a series of pieces to find out what could have happened ... we sent them and ... from there on only answer and impossible to get an answer. Unfortunately many others affected if they have responded in the forums explaining what we fear ... Insanity is missing since their kits began to give problems and has no interest in finding out why their kits fail. The opinion of my mechanic is that no matter how well sold the components are of very low quality and are bound to break.

 

Welcome to Renntech:welcomeani:

Sorry to hear about your IMS issues, but yours is just one of many similar incidents involving what we have come to call the “me too” vendors of retrofit kits. Ever since Jake Raby and Charles Navarro developed the first retrofit systems, a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon with what appear to be similar offerings, only problem is that while the LN systems were subjected substantial in house testing (often to failure) before being released to the public, most of the “me too” product offerings were not run though similar testing before coming to market.  Add in the virtual storm of claims such as “it isn’t the bearing, it’s the lack of lubrication”, and “roller bearings have higher load carrying capacity”; most of which are simply hot air at a minimum.

 

Unfortunately, too many potential customers for retrofits have fallen victim to outlandish claims or lower price points rather than taking a moment to ask some serious questions, like “who has the largest installed base of successful installations”, “who has the facilities to conduct product evaluations and testing”, and who has a long established history of quality products for these engines.  As long as I have been involved with the M96/97 engines, I have never been able to understand why anyone would buy such a critical item based solely on price points or marketing hype.

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