Engine died while idling at stop light, cranks but won't start, 2

[thatsjeek]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to Porsche and am stuck and thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any advice!

 

The car is a 1999 Carrera 2 with 3.4L.  The engine cranks but doesn't start.

 

I ordered the Durametric and while waiting for it to arrive I decided to to some basic tests:

- Checked fuel relay and DME relay and those both seem to be OK.

- I removed and tested the Crankshaft sensor with a multimeter and it was OK.

- Changed the oil and inspected the oil/filter for metal specks (to check for IMS failure) and oil was clean and no signs of metal flakes on the filter.

 

 

Finally the Durametric arrived and came up with 2 Fault codes:

- P0341 Camshaft sensor bank 1 Short to B+

- P1397 Camshaft sensor bank 2 Short to ground

 

I also did Actual values for Camshaft bank 1 and the value was 0 (Also read here that the bank 2 values don't show up in the Durametric software for MY99)

 

Is it common for both sensors to go bad at the same time like this or could it be a sign of a much bigger problem?

 

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated!

[JFP in PA]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to Porsche and am stuck and thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any advice!

 

The car is a 1999 Carrera 2 with 3.4L.  The engine cranks but doesn't start.

 

I ordered the Durametric and while waiting for it to arrive I decided to to some basic tests:

- Checked fuel relay and DME relay and those both seem to be OK.

- I removed and tested the Crankshaft sensor with a multimeter and it was OK.

- Changed the oil and inspected the oil/filter for metal specks (to check for IMS failure) and oil was clean and no signs of metal flakes on the filter.

 

 

Finally the Durametric arrived and came up with 2 Fault codes:

- P0341 Camshaft sensor bank 1 Short to B+

- P1397 Camshaft sensor bank 2 Short to ground

 

I also did Actual values for Camshaft bank 1 and the value was 0 (Also read here that the bank 2 values don't show up in the Durametric software for MY99)

 

Is it common for both sensors to go bad at the same time like this or could it be a sign of a much bigger problem?

 

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Welcome to RennTech :welcome:

 

Actually, it seems rather odd that both sensor would go out at the same time, sounds more electrical or electronic in nature.  I would start looking at the wiring harness for the sensors to make sure something has not come adrift or shorted out.  I would also disconnect the sensors and check them for possible shorts as well.

[Ahsai]

+1 and also check fuses C1 to C4 and verify the fuel pump is running. Next is to verify sparks.

[thatsjeek]

 

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to Porsche and am stuck and thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any advice!

 

The car is a 1999 Carrera 2 with 3.4L.  The engine cranks but doesn't start.

 

I ordered the Durametric and while waiting for it to arrive I decided to to some basic tests:

- Checked fuel relay and DME relay and those both seem to be OK.

- I removed and tested the Crankshaft sensor with a multimeter and it was OK.

- Changed the oil and inspected the oil/filter for metal specks (to check for IMS failure) and oil was clean and no signs of metal flakes on the filter.

 

 

Finally the Durametric arrived and came up with 2 Fault codes:

- P0341 Camshaft sensor bank 1 Short to B+

- P1397 Camshaft sensor bank 2 Short to ground

 

I also did Actual values for Camshaft bank 1 and the value was 0 (Also read here that the bank 2 values don't show up in the Durametric software for MY99)

 

Is it common for both sensors to go bad at the same time like this or could it be a sign of a much bigger problem?

 

Any thoughts/advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

Welcome to RennTech :welcome:

 

Actually, it seems rather odd that both sensor would go out at the same time, sounds more electrical or electronic in nature.  I would start looking at the wiring harness for the sensors to make sure something has not come adrift or shorted out.  I would also disconnect the sensors and check them for possible shorts as well.

 

Thanks!  I had a feeling that it was odd that both would go out. I'll check the wiring harness and the sensors themselves.   

 

+1 and also check fuses C1 to C4 and verify the fuel pump is running. Next is to verify sparks.

I've checked all the fuses and all are OK.  The fuel pump will run every once in a while when I turned the ignition to on.  I am also able to run the fuel pump manually by using the durametric software and it sounds normal.

 

I have not checked spark yet, I will try that and post back with results.  Thanks again!

[thatsjeek]

+1 and also check fuses C1 to C4 and verify the fuel pump is running. Next is to verify sparks.

 

I wasn't even thinking and for some reason I thought I could test for spark with the engine out, but I'm not really sure if that is possible (is it?).  I completely left out a very important piece of information: I was convinced it was a catastrophic engine failure so I dropped the engine to get a better look.  Now regretting taking the engine out before posting here!

 

Everything is still assembled except I did just remove the intake manifold and it looks like the cylinders are completely flooded with fuel.  Not sure what to make of that since it could be caused by me trying to start the car over the past few weeks. 

 

In any case, if anyone has any suggestions for things I can/should check while the engine is dropped before it goes back in, that would be much appreciated, although I don't mind putting the engine back in to do some more testing.

[Ahsai]

Since you already have the engine dropped, you may as well verify timing of both cams by removing the cam plugs and rotate the crank by hand and see if anything binds? If not, do a leak down test/ compression test on each cylinder to make sure there's compression. I assume you already checked for coolant in oil and vise vera?

I'm not of aware of any ways to test for sparks with the engine dropped and all sensors/coils disconnected from the DME.

[thatsjeek]

Since you already have the engine dropped, you may as well verify timing of both cams by removing the cam plugs and rotate the crank by hand and see if anything binds? If not, do a leak down test/ compression test on each cylinder to make sure there's compression. I assume you already checked for coolant in oil and vise vera?

I'm not of aware of any ways to test for sparks with the engine dropped and all sensors/coils disconnected from the DME.

 

 

Alright, took your advice and watched the cams as I rotate the crank and I think a found the problem (well, a problem)!

 

The cams aren't rotating as I turn the crank and the I can see that the intake valves aren't moving (as confirmation that the cams aren't rotating).  

[Ahsai]

Ouch! Oh well, at least your intuition was correct and the effort of dropping the engine was not wasted. IMSB went? Hope it's salvageable.

[rbrindley1]

Ouch, is right. Have you checked the oil filter for metal bits. Also, drop the sump and check for metal debris. Classic signs of IMSB. A new problem with the 5 chains is timing chain failure. Good luck and hoping it is nothing serious.

[thatsjeek]

Alright so I was able to do some more investigating today.  

 

I took the flywheel off and wanted to take a peak at the IMS bearing.

 

I took the IMSB cover off and left the bearing in place, but took the rubber seal off to look inside the bearing.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the IMS bearing looks OK!  (See attachment)

 

 

With the rubber seal off and the cover off, I turned the crank a little bit and watched the IMS bearing. It was moving in what seemed to be in a normal way (as normal as it can without the cover holding it in place).  This is telling me that the chain between the crank and the IMS seems to be OK.

 

I also took one of the oil pumps off and watched to see if it rotated with the crank. It does not.  

 

So summary:  

 

When turning the crankshaft

• Camshafts don't rotate
• Oil pump (on the left side) doesn't rotate
• IMS seems to rotate just fine

 

 

 

 

[Ahsai]

Sounds like one of the timing chains has snapped.

[JFP in PA]

 

Alright so I was able to do some more investigating today.  

 

I took the flywheel off and wanted to take a peak at the IMS bearing.

 

I took the IMSB cover off and left the bearing in place, but took the rubber seal off to look inside the bearing.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the IMS bearing looks OK!  (See attachment)

 

 

With the rubber seal off and the cover off, I turned the crank a little bit and watched the IMS bearing. It was moving in what seemed to be in a normal way (as normal as it can without the cover holding it in place).  This is telling me that the chain between the crank and the IMS seems to be OK.

 

I also took one of the oil pumps off and watched to see if it rotated with the crank. It does not.  

 

So summary:  

 

When turning the crankshaft

• Camshafts don't rotate
• Oil pump (on the left side) doesn't rotate
• IMS seems to rotate just fine

 

 

You definitely have lost the cam drive on at least one bank, possibly both.  With the engine out, you need to pull the cam covers (you will need cam holding tools for this) and you will see which ones are gone.

[thatsjeek]

You guys are awesome.  Quick replies and very helpful!

 

I ordered camshaft tools.  I'll post back with status after I get the tools and take a look to see what's happening inside my poor engine.

[thatsjeek]

Been a long time! Got more of the engine taken apart. All the chains seem to be fine and intact.

 

Something possibly noteworthy:

Found some small black pieces of hard plastic when I got one of the cylinder heads off (see attachment)

 

[Ahsai]

Thanks for the update and glad to see your progress. The big piece looks like the water pump impeller but it seems too big to be found inside the head. Where exactly did you find those pieces? Are all 5 chains intact? If they are, that sounds like the IMS sprocket(s) is slipping.

[JFP in PA]

Been a long time! Got more of the engine taken apart. All the chains seem to be fine and intact.

 

Something possibly noteworthy:

Found some small black pieces of hard plastic when I got one of the cylinder heads off (see attachment)

 

Shards of water pump impeller.

[thatsjeek]

Thanks for the update and glad to see your progress. The big piece looks like the water pump impeller but it seems too big to be found inside the head. Where exactly did you find those pieces? Are all 5 chains intact? If they are, that sounds like the IMS sprocket(s) is slipping.

They were in the block after I removed the cylinder head (sorry for the confusion!)  My next step is to look more closely at the IMS. 

 

 

 

Been a long time! Got more of the engine taken apart. All the chains seem to be fine and intact.

 

Something possibly noteworthy:

Found some small black pieces of hard plastic when I got one of the cylinder heads off (see attachment)

 

Shards of water pump impeller.

 

 

 

Well that's very interesting! Must be from a previous water pump, since mine has metal impellers!

[Ahsai]

That makes sense. You need to split the case to get to the IMS then. Most lkely slipped sprockets on the IMS.

[JFP in PA]

 

Thanks for the update and glad to see your progress. The big piece looks like the water pump impeller but it seems too big to be found inside the head. Where exactly did you find those pieces? Are all 5 chains intact? If they are, that sounds like the IMS sprocket(s) is slipping.

They were in the block after I removed the cylinder head (sorry for the confusion!)  My next step is to look more closely at the IMS. 

 

 

 

Been a long time! Got more of the engine taken apart. All the chains seem to be fine and intact.

 

Something possibly noteworthy:

Found some small black pieces of hard plastic when I got one of the cylinder heads off (see attachment)

 

Shards of water pump impeller.

 

 

 

Well that's very interesting! Must be from a previous water pump, since mine has metal impellers!

 

 

Get rid of that pump, you should not be using a metal impeller pump in one of these engines.  I would also say that whomever installed that pump did not know what they were doing as absolutely no sealant is needed.

 

I would also agree with Duncan, you may have a slipped gear on the IMS shaft, which would stop the cams from turning.

[thatsjeek]

OK so I split the case, everything looks normal in here (as far as I can tell).  Anything in particular I should be looking for or a way to tell if I have a slipped gear?

 

[Edit]:  Everything was turning and rotating just fine with the cylinder heads off (including all three chains attached to IMS)

Edited April 17, 2016 by thatsjeek

[Ahsai]

Um, you said the cams didn't turn when you turned the crank. There got to be somethng broken between the crank and the cams. The IMS can't be removed without separating the crank carrier from the engine case half. You may as well remove the crank carrier at this stage so you can extract the IMS for further inspection. You may also try to hold the sprocket while turning the crank to see if the sprockets slip. Be careful not to pnch your fingers though.

[dcdrechsel]

Without a load  (Valves) the sprocket would probably turn and look normal .Simple fix is to have the sprocket  pinned .

[Ahsai]

Without a load  (Valves) the sprocket would probably turn and look normal .Simple fix is to have the sprocket  pinned .

Agreed. That's what I suspected also.

[Ahsai]

Btw, it looks like there are no valve piston contacts on the bank 2 pistons. Is bank 1 the same? If true, you are very very lucky.

[thatsjeek]

Well looks like you guys nailed it! Attached a video where the shaft spins without the sprocket.

Does it make sense to just find a used intermediate shaft? Or is it really simple to pin it?

trim.1AC49A5C-F260-493A-BEB3-A26B043DD49B.MOV