Dave07997S

I was able to purchase an extended powertrain warranty for 6 years or 60,000 miles for $2,800.

So, I'm now covered all the way to 100,000 miles.

I'm in California.

Was this from the dealer as a CPO or was 3rd party? Porsche doesn't offer an extended warranty other than CPO here in Cali.. If you did please enlighten me, other wise I may not keep the car once the lease is up.

Hi Dave

Not really - I've had one or 2 minor issues with the car that should be sorted by next week. (Just bits and pieces breaking and falling off, broken windshield all really irritating but almost sorted). I've decided not to go any further modifying this car for now. The lease is up later in the year and I can't justify spending even more money on mods I'll only be able to enjoy for a few weeks.

Interestingly, RSS has offered to swap the plenum I bought from them for their 'Gen-2' version. I'm told that will address the fitment issues I had and maybe I'll also see the performance gains so many others seem to have found but that never happened on my car. Generous offer given I've been quite scathing about the product - good bunch of guys!

So my final spec will be full AWE, plenum, BMC-F1 filter panel, stock ECU. The only dyno runs I ever did on the car were with the knackered ECU prior to the PIWIS reflash. Even then we were getting 325+ wheel HP with a load of timing pulled. The car was running 21-22degrees BTDC at peak power against the 25 degrees it should run. Accoring to the tuners I've spoken to, you see a +3 BHP gain per degree of timing (until it reaches optimal then it starts to lose power) so that would equate to just over 330 wheel HP with 25 degrees of timing. About 385 crank at a guess. Not to shabby! (And the new plenum may give a little more).

Sad to see you getting rid of the S, I read on 6speed that you were considering a GT3 or TT. I talked to several people who have the IPD plenum and they were very pleased with it. I am more interested in the plenum as it can be machined to fit the X51 throttle body, any thought on this??

Dave

I'm really surprised that IPD didn't make a specific plenum for the X-51 T/body w/ the standard intake runners. If their standard 997 item can be machined than it's the perfect conversion kit to get this part and the X-51 airbox to work with the rest of the intake system.

The only (major) problem I see is the mapping. There's one very obvious one and one that isn't so obvious.

The obvious one is the alpha-n mapping in the ECU - this will be off by miles. This map replaces the MAF sensor signal with a table of pre-defined signal values based on throttle angle and rpm if the MAF fails. The amount of air going into the engine at a given throttle angle will be way more with a bigger t/body so the car would run mad lean. I don't know if this alpha-n map has any function with a MAF connected.

The less obvious one is that all the other maps in the ECU derive their target lambdas and ignition values from throttle angle and rpm. I'm concerned you'd need a serious remap if you used the X-51 t/body as I don't believe the standard maps would work any more. An example. Your map for 20% throttle and 3000rpm returns a timing value of (let's say) 38 deg btdc. This works fine with the amount of air going in at 20% throttle opening with the standard t/body. With the X-51 t/body, a 20% throttle opening might let in as much air as (again, let's say) a 25% throttle opening with the standard t/body but would still pick up on the same ignition value as it would with the standard t/body. As you let more air into an engine, it needs LESS timing so our 38deg btdc may now be 5-6 degrees too much. The knock sensors would then kick in and you'd lose (a LOT of) power - maybe to the point of throwing a CEL. It may also be that with a 25% opening on the standard t/body, the map asks for a richer mixture. This wouldn't happen with the X-51 t/body as the ECU would still use the 20% value, running the car too lean and exacerbating the problem.

Swapping throttle bodies just isn't a simple exercise in a Motronic car!!

Anyone else care to comment on the above?

Ian, there is a memeber on this site that did just what I wanted to do, which is use the IPD plenum with the larger X51 throttle body. He is running OEM software with no issues. That doesn't mean he isn't running lean though. Also, even though it is a motronic car the 02 sensors are gross adjusters so they should be able to adjust accordingly from my understanding, after all that's the point of a MAF vs. a Speed Density system. Unfortunately not to many people are aware of the differences between the X51 and non X51. As ususal always love your input...

Cheers..

Dave

Hi,

What is the maximum spacer width I can put on my car? (Front and rear)

My car has "standard" Carrera S rims.

Thanks in advance!

7mm front, 15mm rears.

Dave

Hi Dave

Not really - I've had one or 2 minor issues with the car that should be sorted by next week. (Just bits and pieces breaking and falling off, broken windshield all really irritating but almost sorted). I've decided not to go any further modifying this car for now. The lease is up later in the year and I can't justify spending even more money on mods I'll only be able to enjoy for a few weeks.

Interestingly, RSS has offered to swap the plenum I bought from them for their 'Gen-2' version. I'm told that will address the fitment issues I had and maybe I'll also see the performance gains so many others seem to have found but that never happened on my car. Generous offer given I've been quite scathing about the product - good bunch of guys!

So my final spec will be full AWE, plenum, BMC-F1 filter panel, stock ECU. The only dyno runs I ever did on the car were with the knackered ECU prior to the PIWIS reflash. Even then we were getting 325+ wheel HP with a load of timing pulled. The car was running 21-22degrees BTDC at peak power against the 25 degrees it should run. Accoring to the tuners I've spoken to, you see a +3 BHP gain per degree of timing (until it reaches optimal then it starts to lose power) so that would equate to just over 330 wheel HP with 25 degrees of timing. About 385 crank at a guess. Not to shabby! (And the new plenum may give a little more).

Sad to see you getting rid of the S, I read on 6speed that you were considering a GT3 or TT. I talked to several people who have the IPD plenum and they were very pleased with it. I am more interested in the plenum as it can be machined to fit the X51 throttle body, any thought on this??

Dave

Dave,

If you read the link that Loren gave you I think all of your questions will be answered. It talks about intake manifolds, Plenums and a custom machining option to make the X 51 TB fit.

Oh sorry I see you were in that thread already.. My apologies

Yea Wanyne mentioned machining, but machining what. A new bolt pattern, larger throttle area (this is a given). RSS wants $300 to machine a plenum. That's kind of outlandish. Maybe I can do it myself.

Dave

Dave,

I think they would have to machine one of their plenum's. Not only for the four ne mounting holes but the opening is 4-6MM bigger too.

The stock Plastic Plenum would not work.

David

Thanks Dave,

I knew the OEM plastic plenum wouldn't work, but just how much work would it be to machine the RSS piece. I may drive down to RSS as Greg says he has a 997 X51 throttle body there so I can see.

Dave

Like a crafty veteran, I did search and I think I know what it is, but wanted to confirm with you guys.

-Cold starts up just fine

-New battery a couple months ago

-Full 60K service with new coil packs and plugs a few weeks ago

After I replaced the battery, the engine cranked with greater vigor. Now, say I drive to some destination, park and start it up again, the car sometimes struggles to start.

I've read that it gets worse over time. Well, I think it's getting progressively worse. it only happens after the car's been run then sitting around for me to start it up again.

Thoughts?

The only thing I can think of as the car warms up so does the electrical system, therefore causing greater resistance. This is common for cars with that kind of mileage on the car and could be just as simple as a bad starter cable or other electrical issue along those lines.

Dave

Dave,

If you read the link that Loren gave you I think all of your questions will be answered. It talks about intake manifolds, Plenums and a custom machining option to make the X 51 TB fit.

Oh sorry I see you were in that thread already.. My apologies

Yea Wanyne mentioned machining, but machining what. A new bolt pattern, larger throttle area (this is a given). RSS wants $300 to machine a plenum. That's kind of outlandish. Maybe I can do it myself.

Dave

I had my ECU reflashed using the PIWIS a couple of days ago.

I've put approx 200 miles on the car since the ECU upgrade and I'm delighted to say the performance is now improving with miles not getting worse. Other than that, the car now idles better, runs far smoother when cold and has more torque through the gears so I guess the previous file on the chip must have gotten corrupted somehow.

Thanks, Loren, for your input on this one.

Ian any updates??

Dave

I am pretty sure the bolt patterns line up on 997S but not normal 997's.

You should read the lengthy discussion here.

Thanks Loren..I was involved with that discussion. However it never was fully understood why the X51 throttle body was incompatible. If it's just the opening is larger than that can be changed. I was hoping one of the techs who are ont his site and maybe installed a X51package what is the difference.

I believe it is larger

I know the opening is larger..just wondering if the bolt pattern is the same.

Dave

Is the bolt pattern the same and just the throttle opening is larger, anyone know?

Dave

The car is really designed for 93 octane, even with Cali. 91 the car is losing 8-10rwhp.

Dave

I was curious as to what wheel sizes came on the 08 997 Turbo cars. I know it was a 19" but what is the width on the front and rear, also what is the offset? Thanks in advance.

19X8.5 and 19X11..as far as the offsets I dont remember exactly but I think it was 57mm front and 52mm rear. Just keep in mind the offsets will be different for the rear wheels depending on NB or WB. If the wheels are actually off of a 997T than it is a widebody car and they will stick out a tad much on a NB car.

Dave

There really is some utter cr*p talked about how to get power from a naturally aspirated engine - especially regarding how much is available from bolt-on mods. I think it's about time we discussed what does and doesn't work on these engines....

The 3.8 engine in stock tune produces 93.4BHP/litre. Not stellar by today's standards but still high enough that there's not a lot of 'low-hanging fruit' to be had. Also bear in mind that most engines that do a lot better are either forced induction or (more importantly to this discussion) rev much higher. The max BHP obtainable from an engine increases dramatically with more rpm (assuming the rest of the engine is engineered with the higher rpms in mind). Unfortunately, the 997S engine cannot be revved higher - it explodes. So 93.4BHP/litre is a good result for an engine that only revs to 7300rpm.

So what can be done. Well let's address the OP's question. There are 2 ways to get 400BHP from this engine without forced induction. The first is to have the capacity increased to 4-litres plus, the other is to start with the X-51 engine (the factory 381BHP upgrade). You simply cannot get the stock 355BHP engine to 400BHP. Period.

So what works on these engines? Well sorry guys but here's the absolute truth:

1) Induction kits. These have no proven effect whatsoever apart from noise. The standard airbox is very, very good and keeps intake air temps in check very well. A BMC-F1 panel filter is good for 3-4BHP but doesn't filter as well as the paper one. Your choice.

2) Plenums. Just don't go there. There were hundreds of discussions on 6-speed over these and eventually a lot of third party dynos. Trick plenums lose power in the mid band and give no gains elsewhere. (I bought one, installed it, found a performance loss, removed it and wasted my money so I'm well-placed to comment)!!

3) Exhausts. On the 3.8, the dire-looking pressed steel headers are far better than they look. The work well at low/mid rpm and only very slightly strangle the engine at high rpms. Good quality headers will give 6-7BHP in conjunction with a full exhaust system but only over 5000rpm. You may also lose some low and mid-band torque. The stock mufflers again flow very well and replacing these alone will give little to no gain (5BHP max). The standard catalytic converters however are very restrictive and a good pair of 200-cell cats will give 15-20BHP on this engine. The best solution is a good, matched system (headers, cats, mufflers) that will give 25BHP or so. Nobody has ever (to my knowledge) got to the +40BHP claimed by certain exhaust manufacturers.

4) Re-maps. This is so hit and miss. What does a remap do? Simply, it can alter the mixture or ignition timing at different operating phases of the engine. The standard Porsche maps are designed to run 98-RON (93-PON?) fuel and fuel the engine more or less optimally for max power so there is almost nowhere to go for a stock engine (despite the claims). Blindly adding-in timing (as some generic maps do) will just cause the knock sensors to wind it out again and the whole car will run dreadfully. Unfortunately some 'tuners' just alter the throttle mapping to give the illusion of more part-throttle power - naughty! The time when re-maps DO work is with other mods. Change the hardware (e.g a full exhaust) and you have changed the engine's volumetric efficiency at certain rpms. This usually requires the ignition timing to be changed by a few degrees to work optimally at those rpms and extra power will result, but it's very unlikely to be more than single digits.

So with a stock engine, a full exhaust, custom remap and BMC filter can give +30-35BHP (crank) and this is as far as this goes without very extensive further internal and external modifications to the engine.

The X-51 engine is a different beast however. Totally different intake system, bigger throttle body, high-flow airbox, gas-flowed heads, different exhaust headers and electronics mapped to suit make this a much better platform. This engine retains the stock catalytic converters that are now more restrictive than ever and a full exhaust on this motor will give you 25-30BHP with no trouble. There's your 400+BHP.

If you want 400+ BHP with massive torque, look at 9ff (German Tuner)'s large capacity, crated engines. Expensive, but will give you the fastest 997S out there.

When all is said and done however, to get 400+ BHP is so expensive that you could have one of the better cars Porsche already makes with 400+ BHP out the box (GT3 anyone). A full exhaust, remap and BMC filter combination however, is sensible money and makes the 997S go and sound like it should whilst giving 385-390BHP on a good engine. This would be my preferred route.

Ian, glad to see you here as well and always look forward to your input. However, the X51 heads from my understanding are nothing more than some bowl work and a stiffer exhaust valve for the increased rpm to 7450rpm. The stock non X51 heads have to flow pretty darn good to get to 93hp/litre while limiting rpm to 7300rpm. In my own experience heads without updated cams and more rpm is probably at best 5-10rwhp and in my opinion are a total waste of money for what Porsche wants for the X51 heads. You layed out a good plan for getting the hp to at least X51 levels with only half or less of the expense. Obviously if you start with more power you will end up with more power. On 6speed we discussed that I was considering the intake manifolds from the X51 and I have to be honest, from the people I talked to I figured it wasn't worth the expense (as you thought) of going down this road for what will at best be 10rwhp for the huge expense. I will still do the X51 carborn air box as I think it is so pretty and really is not a bad investment for what it costs (a lot cheaper than some of the non OEM intakes out there) and only having to deal with cutting out the upper deck lid for the other inlet.

Dave

Dave - really good to see you on here too. This is one of the best forums on the 'net for Porsche owners and I wish more 6speeders would take the time to post (and contribute). I agree totally with your comments above - of all the intakes for the Mk1 997S, the X-51 is probably the best. However..... I've mailed Fabspeed today to beg them to produce a version of their (superb) high performance intake (that they only provide for 997S/2 currently) for the 997S/1. I'll be posting on 6speed about this soon too. Their new intake is the best I've ever seen and I think all us addicted modifiers would snap it up for our Mk1's!

See you on 6speed again soon.

Ian

You too Ian...

What software do you like?? After I do the intake I would like to do some software to tie it all together. I am leaning toward FVD, they are kind of expensive but the tweak to the numbers you email them. What's your thoughts??

Dave

There really is some utter cr*p talked about how to get power from a naturally aspirated engine - especially regarding how much is available from bolt-on mods. I think it's about time we discussed what does and doesn't work on these engines....

The 3.8 engine in stock tune produces 93.4BHP/litre. Not stellar by today's standards but still high enough that there's not a lot of 'low-hanging fruit' to be had. Also bear in mind that most engines that do a lot better are either forced induction or (more importantly to this discussion) rev much higher. The max BHP obtainable from an engine increases dramatically with more rpm (assuming the rest of the engine is engineered with the higher rpms in mind). Unfortunately, the 997S engine cannot be revved higher - it explodes. So 93.4BHP/litre is a good result for an engine that only revs to 7300rpm.

So what can be done. Well let's address the OP's question. There are 2 ways to get 400BHP from this engine without forced induction. The first is to have the capacity increased to 4-litres plus, the other is to start with the X-51 engine (the factory 381BHP upgrade). You simply cannot get the stock 355BHP engine to 400BHP. Period.

So what works on these engines? Well sorry guys but here's the absolute truth:

1) Induction kits. These have no proven effect whatsoever apart from noise. The standard airbox is very, very good and keeps intake air temps in check very well. A BMC-F1 panel filter is good for 3-4BHP but doesn't filter as well as the paper one. Your choice.

2) Plenums. Just don't go there. There were hundreds of discussions on 6-speed over these and eventually a lot of third party dynos. Trick plenums lose power in the mid band and give no gains elsewhere. (I bought one, installed it, found a performance loss, removed it and wasted my money so I'm well-placed to comment)!!

3) Exhausts. On the 3.8, the dire-looking pressed steel headers are far better than they look. The work well at low/mid rpm and only very slightly strangle the engine at high rpms. Good quality headers will give 6-7BHP in conjunction with a full exhaust system but only over 5000rpm. You may also lose some low and mid-band torque. The stock mufflers again flow very well and replacing these alone will give little to no gain (5BHP max). The standard catalytic converters however are very restrictive and a good pair of 200-cell cats will give 15-20BHP on this engine. The best solution is a good, matched system (headers, cats, mufflers) that will give 25BHP or so. Nobody has ever (to my knowledge) got to the +40BHP claimed by certain exhaust manufacturers.

4) Re-maps. This is so hit and miss. What does a remap do? Simply, it can alter the mixture or ignition timing at different operating phases of the engine. The standard Porsche maps are designed to run 98-RON (93-PON?) fuel and fuel the engine more or less optimally for max power so there is almost nowhere to go for a stock engine (despite the claims). Blindly adding-in timing (as some generic maps do) will just cause the knock sensors to wind it out again and the whole car will run dreadfully. Unfortunately some 'tuners' just alter the throttle mapping to give the illusion of more part-throttle power - naughty! The time when re-maps DO work is with other mods. Change the hardware (e.g a full exhaust) and you have changed the engine's volumetric efficiency at certain rpms. This usually requires the ignition timing to be changed by a few degrees to work optimally at those rpms and extra power will result, but it's very unlikely to be more than single digits.

So with a stock engine, a full exhaust, custom remap and BMC filter can give +30-35BHP (crank) and this is as far as this goes without very extensive further internal and external modifications to the engine.

The X-51 engine is a different beast however. Totally different intake system, bigger throttle body, high-flow airbox, gas-flowed heads, different exhaust headers and electronics mapped to suit make this a much better platform. This engine retains the stock catalytic converters that are now more restrictive than ever and a full exhaust on this motor will give you 25-30BHP with no trouble. There's your 400+BHP.

If you want 400+ BHP with massive torque, look at 9ff (German Tuner)'s large capacity, crated engines. Expensive, but will give you the fastest 997S out there.

When all is said and done however, to get 400+ BHP is so expensive that you could have one of the better cars Porsche already makes with 400+ BHP out the box (GT3 anyone). A full exhaust, remap and BMC filter combination however, is sensible money and makes the 997S go and sound like it should whilst giving 385-390BHP on a good engine. This would be my preferred route.

Ian, glad to see you here as well and always look forward to your input. However, the X51 heads from my understanding are nothing more than some bowl work and a stiffer exhaust valve for the increased rpm to 7450rpm. The stock non X51 heads have to flow pretty darn good to get to 93hp/litre while limiting rpm to 7300rpm. In my own experience heads without updated cams and more rpm is probably at best 5-10rwhp and in my opinion are a total waste of money for what Porsche wants for the X51 heads. You layed out a good plan for getting the hp to at least X51 levels with only half or less of the expense. Obviously if you start with more power you will end up with more power. On 6speed we discussed that I was considering the intake manifolds from the X51 and I have to be honest, from the people I talked to I figured it wasn't worth the expense (as you thought) of going down this road for what will at best be 10rwhp for the huge expense. I will still do the X51 carborn air box as I think it is so pretty and really is not a bad investment for what it costs (a lot cheaper than some of the non OEM intakes out there) and only having to deal with cutting out the upper deck lid for the other inlet.

Dave

Wayne,

When you had the RSS Plenum modified did you give the maching shop the specs? Or did you just give them the TB and the plenum and tell them what you wanted done?

Also Dave.. I'm in Los Angeles as well and would like to follow your process if you go the same route

Thanks!

Phillip, we should stay in touch and maybe Greg ar RSS will give us a deal. He can machine the plenum for us but he wants $300 to do it. Sounds a tad high.

Dave

Hi great write up,

I was reading somewhere you could remove the stock mufflers w/o removing the rear cover. This will be a one man job unfortunately, I read you could use ramps on the rears and remove only the brace, possible?

Thanks

Installing AWE mufflers only no cats or headers. 2006 911s 6speed

Thanks

You don't need to remove bumper cover to remove and install mufflers...just an FYI..

I installed my whole exhaust system (headers, mufflers and cats) in 3.5 hrs. with the car backed up on thick phone books. You don't need to remove the bumper cover nor the wheels.

Dave

I live near Louisville Ky. I don't know exactly what was done to modify the RSS plenum. (I did not see the part until after the modification, and the fit was perfect.) I do know that it took a bit of machine shop work to make the fit. I did not want to modify any stock parts on my 997S (ie manifolds or X51 TB) and the stock plastic plenum was not a ggod choice for machining. The stock RSS was suggested because it was metal and could be easily modified.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne...

I talked to RSS, they did testing with the X51 TB with thier plenum and found 3-4rwhp more than the stock TB. I feel it's worth it.

Dave

Yes I had the existing RSS IPD modified. I recommend a good machine shop unless you have the tools and the talent.

Wayne

Wayne, where do you live...I am in Los Angeles. I figure the existing RSS plenum probably just has to have the hole enlargened as well as the old screw holes filled and new ones drilled. Is this about it??

Dave

Dave,

You were correct about the Road & Track article 1/4 mile time. I was basing the timing et on my "recall" which apparently was not exact.

However, the X-51 TB will work on the existing 997S intake manifolds without modification to the TB or stock intake manifolds. The TB connects directly to a plastic intake distribution tube (Plenum). You have to use a RSS IPD Plenum that has been adapted to fit the stock X51 TB. This is not a big deal.

Wayne

Wayne did you modify an existing RSS IPD plenum as Greg says he doesn't produce one. It can be easily be done though I guess.

Dave

Yes, Road & Track Tested a stock 2005 997S and reported 0-60 time of 3.9 sec., but the 1/4 mile was about 12.8 @ 110 as I recall.

I have not dyno'd my car but my track time comparison is better and the acceleration differences are significant as follows:

Stock 997S

0-60 best time = 4.1

1/4 mile best time = 12.9 @ 111.9

Modified 997S

0-60 best time = 3.9

1/4 mile best time 12.2 @116

To answer the question about the X - 51 throttle body, the base attachment is exactly the same as a stock 997S TB, so no modifications are required. The intake is larger. You can use a stock TB with the X-51 air box, but it requires a "bushing" at the rubber to TB connection.

Wayne

Wayne could you post a pic of the throttle body connected to the intake...I have been told countless times that it would not fit the stock intake distributor and a few times it will fit. It's not that I don't believe you I just want to show it to the naysayers.

Dave

I have a friend with an 05 997 S. He is putting the X 51 throttle body on and was told by his tuner he has to replace the manifolds as well because of the difference in diameter.

I would like to see a picture too!! Is it that it will fit the stock manifold but will work better with the X 51 manifold?

Thanks!

There are other issues as well if you change the manifolds such as the butterfly valve in the OEM manifold..that's part of the software update of the X51. To be honest..I don't believe him until I see it.

Another thing...the R&T article had the non X51 S run a 3.9 0-60 and a 12.3 @114.8mph...my best Jim Carrery impression "SMOKIN!!"

Dave

Yes, Road & Track Tested a stock 2005 997S and reported 0-60 time of 3.9 sec., but the 1/4 mile was about 12.8 @ 110 as I recall.

I have not dyno'd my car but my track time comparison is better and the acceleration differences are significant as follows:

Stock 997S

0-60 best time = 4.1

1/4 mile best time = 12.9 @ 111.9

Modified 997S

0-60 best time = 3.9

1/4 mile best time 12.2 @116

To answer the question about the X - 51 throttle body, the base attachment is exactly the same as a stock 997S TB, so no modifications are required. The intake is larger. You can use a stock TB with the X-51 air box, but it requires a "bushing" at the rubber to TB connection.

Wayne

Wayne could you post a pic of the throttle body connected to the intake...I have been told countless times that it would not fit the stock intake distributor and a few times it will fit. It's not that I don't believe you I just want to show it to the naysayers.

Dave

Hi;

I have considered all options for performance. (I don't like turbo, and superchargers/ chips void your warranty.)

I really prefer both the sound and response of naturally aspirated engines.

I have a 2008 997S and have been very successful with HP/ performance gains by adding the following: 1)Fabspeed headers/ mufflers, 2)X-51 Carbon Fiber Airbox with new X-51 throttle body, 3)BMC air filters.

You can do all of this for about $5K if you do the install yourself.

I have not dyno'ed the changes but can guarantee you will be satisfied with the "seat of the pants" test. I have road tested by comparing to the new 997-2 (385HP) and smoked the new 997 in both 1/4 mile and track time.

0-60 times are 3.9 sec., 1/4 mile 12.2@116mph. (This is pretty darn close to GT3 specs.)

This would be my recommendation for HP/ Performance enhancements.

Wayne

Wayne...how did you mount the X51 throttle body to the non X51 intake manifold??

Dave

I am wondering what type and size air filters are used in the X51 intake. I was thinking of possibly swapping them out for K&N or BMC filters if they make the correct type of filter.

Thanks!

They use the same intake as the normal non X51,just 2 of them. What's up man, you're here too..Are you going to the TechArt meet on 28 Mar.?

Dave

Except for the fact that the BMW pays for all maintainence the first 4yrs. or 50k miles. Also, the Porsche gets way better fuel economy over the E92 M3. Those things are rated 14/20 vs. the 17/24 for the 997S.

Dave