wazoo

Local OPC have diagnosed my MAF as faulty.

I'll try cleaning it first as this thead suggests, but, and my reason for posting, is that the dealer has advised that the new MAF needs "calibrating" (this was from one of the service staff, NOT a technician).

Now, is he simply trying to justify their charge of £400+ for the job, ("sir, we have to get in your car, drive it in to the service bay, leave it several hours to cool down, open the engine compartment, lean in, disconnect & unscrew the old unit, open the packaging to the new one, etc, etc.....") or, is there in fact some truth in the vague statement that "calibration" is required?

Will I also have to disconnect the battery to clear "something" out?

If so, what will this achieve (i.e what is the "something" that I'm clearing out) , and what happens if I DON'T disconnect the battery?

Thanks.

Only the non-egas cars need to have the DME re-programmed when changing the MAF. That is because the MAF used on the early (C2) non-egas cars is no longer made. To use the newer MAF the DME needs to be re-programmed.

Since you have a C4 - you have egas and there should be no need to re-program the DME.

Perhaps your OPC was confused and thought your car was a C2.

Loren, the original part number for the 99 C2 is still available. They are not superceded and do not need calibration. Part number 996 606 123 00 whereas the egas for the 3.4 is 996 606 124 00. You can get the Bosch part from an after market supplier or from the dealer. Same part number as is my orginal MAF with a March 1998 build date.

I didn't think these needed to reprogrammed either. Also, what tech. can't tell the difference between a C2 and C4? Sounds like a slow day in the shop...I've had my share of honest mistakes (read up in my thread on the 'problems' with my 87 Targa and aftermarket MAF that turned out to be a fault chip) and ripoffs. Seems it is too easy for unscrupulous techs/shop supervisors to "hang parts" instead of fix problems.

I think shops would be well advised to explain that once you drive a 911 in, they need to get at least $200 in repairs or they don't break even. You have to pay for the tech, the overhead and the parts sitting in the parts bin.

Unfortunately, dealers have to charge for any services they provide...it's how they make a living. I highly recommend you use this as well as other forums to learn about ways to self diagnose if you have the time and inclination. Also, I would not assume that you need a MAF...that is the "easy" assumption. Could be something else as well. I've had a dealer install a MAF only to find that I actually needed to replace a chip. 2 weeks of hassle due to misdiagnosis. Best of luck!

Which chip did you need to switch ? Also what OBD2 codes did you get at that time ? I got

P1128 and P1130 (rich air/fuel mixture, both cylinder banks). I'm hoping that the MAF cleanup works.

:cheers:

Sid

The chip in question was for an '87 Targa. I had an aftermarket MAF on it and the shop said the hesitation was due to the "junk" aftermarket MAF hot film sensor. They put on the OE airbox...except...that didn't fix the problem...and billed me $600. Eventually I was able to diagnose this, with help of Autothority, as a faulty chip. Got a new chip and bingo...no problem. Then...asked the shop back for their money and returned their OE airbox. It was a nightmare...but I did resolve it!

Now...regarding the code...I did get the P1128. I cleaned the MAF and used Techron and that resolved the issue...for now. The sad part of this story is that tomorrow will be my last day with that C4. I'll be driving an Audi S4 instead...kids are too big for the backseats...

:(

How do you clear the CEL light ? I don't have a OBD2 reader (yet) and was wondering if disconnecting the battery would work ?

Yes, that will work but you won't know what the problem is and it won't correct the problem. Autozone will read your code for free.

Also, any recommendations on a good OBD2 reader ?

Upper right corner of the page click on "Reviews"

Oh man ... I paid the local porsche dealership $110 to tell me what the code means ("diagnosis charge") ... I literally paid for my ignorance :eek:

So Loren, do I have to tell Autozone anything for that free readout ? Just for future references, till I get the OBD 2 reader. BTW, I still don't know the actual error code, but the service guy told me "you need a new mass air flow sensor" (among other things). I'll ask him for the exact error codes tomorrow to make a more informed decision...

About the OBD 2 reader, it looks like the carcode is highly recommended. I guess I'll go for that one then. I'm just surprised how primitive their website is ... at least compared to how great their software has been rated ....

Thanks guys, I'll hopefully know the error codes tomorrow (for $110 ... where is the crying 'smiley' !?!)

Sid

Unfortunately, dealers have to charge for any services they provide...it's how they make a living. I highly recommend you use this as well as other forums to learn about ways to self diagnose if you have the time and inclination. Also, I would not assume that you need a MAF...that is the "easy" assumption. Could be something else as well. I've had a dealer install a MAF only to find that I actually needed to replace a chip. 2 weeks of hassle due to misdiagnosis. Best of luck!

I just had the same problem on my brother's 2000 C4. See the attached. The button is on the underside.

Wow, I fiddled with that thing and could feel it underneath...why on earth would someone design the clip so the button isn't visible? :cursing:

I had cleared the CEL and all has been well the last few weeks. Tonight, pulling into the garage, it came on again. Wasn't my day today. Thanks for the info.

So those little tabs sticking out on the sides don't push in or pull out?

That's what I thought too...but they don't seem functional. I've tried gently pushing, squeezing, pulling. Price to replace is around $300 for a new MAF? Was afraid to break it. Once I had removed the entire unit, I still didn't see a disconnect point. It looked more like a single piece? Beyond my abilities! But then...I'm a simple man....

Wonder if anyone else with a 2000 MY C4 has had this experience?

:beer:

Do you have a photo of it?

Attached a few photos...it's a soft rubber boot...there didn't seem a way to unsnap anything short of unscrewing torx and pulling entire unit out.

Thanks, Wazoo. Yeah, I'm in the software industry and can tell you all about incomplete feature implementations, incorrectly loaded databases, and the like. Silly me for thinking that the an option missing from the Porsche configurator (XLF) would be in Edmund's! :P

I really appreciate your insights. I have read the same re:slow launch on the C4 & C4S. The guys at AutoSpies seem to have some insights in the same vein as yours ; mainly in terms of the fact that existing C4 customers don't see the value of the 997 C4 & C4S because:

a.) the C2S is so darned good,

b.) the front valance and rear bumper of the C2(S) and C4(S) are the same, and

c.) the price point is higher than expected.

(Link to 'Spies article)

I truly favor the widebody look, but in the 997 it's not nearly as dramatic a difference as it is between a 996 C2 and a C4 (like yours). It's evident when you have a 997 C2 and C4 sitting next to each other, but how often does that happen in real life?

I think that this might work to my advantage... <g> and I will give Champion a call. Thanks for the heads-up!

You sig says that you're from Michigan? Do you drive your car year-around? I'm in Novi a lot, we have a development center there...

In closing, do you want to expound on any of the quirks you mentioned?

Thanks again man, have a great New Year!

-don

To answer your first question, yes, I drive it all year around (had a nasty encounter with a guard rail in Ann Arbor during the last ice storm in 2004...I think in February.

Yes, I'm from Michigan. And as I like to say, these cars were meant to be driven. No offense to those that like to garage their cars...I just like driving them.

Quirks? Ok...where do I start...

The world's worst AM radio reception...bar none. It's comical, it's so bad. As the dealer said, "it's within the Porsche acceptable range..." ???? HUH? I can't hear the stations? Known problem.

You've heard about RMS (Rear main seals) I'm sure. Lots of folks have had problems...not a major concern for you if you're buying new...but something to think about if you keep the car long term.

Service...depending on your dealer. The local dealer here is so bad a friend of mine and I are considering buying the dealership so we can get better service.

Mass Air Flow Sensor/Check Engine Light. This seems to go off on a regular basis for way too many owners. I've had the problem...the dealerships love to tell you it's going to be $600-$800 for a new MAF. Except...far too often it's something else. Do a search on Mass Air Flow Sensors and Check engine lights on this forum and at Rennlist.

Brakedust...ok, not a big deal...but still a PITA

Unacceptable tiptronic...where's the PDK/SMG/Manumatic/Yada yada? The premiere sportscar company shouldn't have an outdated "automatic" in its 997.

Why is an oil change so complex?

Lousy front trunk space

All in all, though...how can you go wrong? I happily deal with all of it when I'm in an off-ramp, accelerating.

I also think the C2S is awfully good...and with a good set of winter tires, almost as capable as a C4S...but not quite...I'd bet.

Happy New Year!

:beer:

Happy New Year to everyone, hope that you're all having an enjoyable holiday season!

I visited my local dealer yesterday to check out a C4S coupe that I've had my eye on. The car is black over sand beige full leather; after perusing the www.porschedealer.com site (and searching the on-line inventories of 20-30 resellers in the Central US), I believe that this car is the coupe spec car for the 4S launch. It includes PAG launch code 762 on the options list. I have found about 8 identical vehicles in the inventories of the resellers I searched (IL, MN, WI, IN, OH).

So, why a C4S coupe instead of a C2S? (in priority order):

1.) Widebody. OMG, it's WIDE. It looks fantastic; reminds me of the 993 C4S - my favorite 911 ever - yet totally up to date.

2.) It's my driver. Okay, not daily - my E32 735i is my daily-regardless-of-the-weather driver, but I won't shy from anything but the worst weather. I fully intend to purchase a second set of rims and equip them with dedicated snows. The stock N1 tires will probably turn to stone and stop working at 35 degrees F, let alone in ice or snow...

Yeah, when it's sloppy and nasty and salty - the old Bimmer will be the transport of choice; but I'll de darned if I'm going to let the Porsche sit all winter. And I can't see me parking the Porsche at O'Hare, either. Those are my only exceptions, though. There are plenty of 20-30 degree days here in Chicago with dry roads and sun, and I plan to take advantage of them!

3.) I'm not planning to track this car. I love the concept of throttle-induced oversteer, but I'll take the safety of AWD considering my newbie status with rear-engine Porsches.

Comments?

The options list is pretty rich without a lot of (useless, IMHO) expensive trim options:

XLF - Sport Exhaust System

482 - TPMS

342 - Heated Front Seats

267 - Self Dimming Mirrors

P15 - Power Seat Package

670 - Navigation for PCM

680 - BOSE High End Sound Package

640 - Sport Chrono Package Plus

XSC - Porsche Crest in Headrest

M6A - Black Mats - Porsche Lettering

692 - Remote CD Changer (6 Disc)

I'm especially in love with the sport exhaust on the C4S; the staggered pipes look very nice, and the sound is... well, I won't go there on a family website. :thumbup:

I could do without TPMS or Navi; I check the tires on all of our cars bi-weekly in the summer and weekly in the winter. I haven't experienced the Porsche navi system, but I've read that others are more intuitive and have better coverage. These things being said, it's a spec car so I don't have a lot of choice, if any. I can simply let my dealer know that I don't favor these options, and see what he'll do on the price.

I would have traded both TPMS and Navi for Adaptive Sport Seats. Just my opinion.

So, here's the deal. MSRP == $102,080. Edmunds says the invoice price with the listed options is approx. $88, 936 - and I say approximately, because I could not find the XLF Sport Exhaust System on the options list (funny, it's not on the porsche.com configurator, either) - but I know that it's $2400 MSRP and I've calculated the general invoice/MSRP spread to be 12.5% for base cars and 15% for options...

Comments?

BTW, Edmunds states that the "True Market Value:What Others Are Paying" is equal to the MSRP. Maybe in a perfect California spring, yes - but not in a Chicago winter. In fact, Motorwerks actually 'migrated' their 911 and Boxster inventory to the back of the lot for winter. The Cayennes are still up front, of course, with the Benzes... <g>

This all being said - my wife said to offer them $94k. I think they'll probably balk at that - but I don't think that she's too far off...

Comments?

...(cut out a bunch of stuff for sake of brevity; wazoo)

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for your replies.

Have a great New Year's, and be careful tonight!

-don

My experience with Edmunds is this...the TMV is not very good for lower volume cars. It's useful for high volume vehicles only. Further, as a guy that knows a bit about vehicle configurators you should know this...they are all wrong to some degree, even the OEM configurators! Use them at your peril...we saw frequent errors even on manufacturer sites.

Also, I have heard that the C4 is not "moving" well right now...but that could just be seasonal variation and a slow launch. Or...it could be that the C4 and C4S pricepoints are just a tad too aggressive for returning C4/C4s owners. It's a major "step-up." Only time will tell. I'd tell you to call a "friend" at Champion Porsche to see how they are "moving" but that sounds just a little bit too salesman like... :D But, if I were looking at a C4 right now, I'd call Champion (in Pompano Beach, FL) and ask them about a C4...they are the largest dealer in the world and could give you a feel for the market (south florida is the #1 luxury car market in the US)

Good luck to you.

:beer:

Do you have a photo of it?

I'll take a pic and send...thanks for the quick feedback. Getting the dreaded 1128. Last time, techron seemed to fix it. No luck this time. Thinking I can clean the MAF...

If it is not too tight then you might get it off with one hand (as in photo 1). If it is on tight then grab the other way (photo 2) and then pull with the other hand while squeezing.

Loren, I tried this...I have no idea how this is supposed to come out...the only thing I was able to accomplish was to unscrew it and pull it out...I have a 2000 MY C4...and the MAF looks different than in the photo. There's a rubber boot and plastic but without the screws, nothing pulls out.

My neck is sore, btw. I have no idea who designs this stuff, but it wasn't designed for "serviceability"...that's for sure! :beer:

Hi all...did a dumb thing today...took off my wedding ring and put it in the "ashtray/cointray" in the center console. Braked hard :drive: and ring rolled forward into a little gap and fell into, of course, a totally unreachable position inside the console. :cursing:

How do I remove this console or at least the forward section so I can dig the ring back out? Appreciate any help.

2000 MY C4