wolverine

The Panamera GTS was released to journalists at Ascari earlier this week. Here are some of the reviews:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/dr...e-panamera-gts

http://www.germancarforum.com/paname...tocar-etc.html

http://www.pistonhea...sp?c=52&i=25080

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/porsc...t-2802477.html

Much better than the white... :eek:

Here's the best looking one I've seen. Like the black with the silver.

Looks pretty sharp with the silver/black and turbo II wheels. Exactly how I ordered it - I'm tempted to drive the 4 - 1/2 hours to the show now...

Just got my production completion date of 3/1/12. I guess that means delivery early/mid April?

I've been researching the Panamera for some time. I race a Porsche and am a Porsche Instructor and have been driving an E60 M5 for 5 years and 130,000 miles. I've driven the Panamera on the track and street, and it is a much better handling car than the E60 M5. I'm first on the list at my dealer for the new F10 M5, but I decided to order a Panamera GTS instead. Here are my reasons:

1. I don't need a 560 HP car on the street. I've driven my modded 530 HP E60 for a long time.

2. I want the best handling, most 'connected' luxury sedan I can buy.

3. I'm hearing that although the M5 is an incredible car, it feels 'bigger' than the E60, doesn't have anywhere near the sound. In fact, they pipe in artificial sound via the car speakers - unbelievable. I really like the 'sound symposer' and the sports exhaust on the GTS

4. I like the 'road presence' of the Panny. It's definitely different. I especially like the exterior treatment of the GTS.

5. One of the big problems I had with the Panny was no ventilation in the sports seats. The alcantara seats look fantastic, and I'm OK with the cloth and no ventilation.

6. The GTS has just about everything I wanted at a big discount. I priced a 4S with the same options and it came out almost $10K more, and that's without the bigger brakes, lower stiffer suspension, alcantara seats, sound symposer, and of course, the 430 HP engine.

7. I got a very good deal on an ordered car - 6% off MSRP and a lifetime guarantee on the drivetrain and engine (extra benny from this dealer).

My only negatives so far are the cost, the overall size (width) is pretty huge, and the fact there is no multifunction wheel with paddles. It's evidently pretty easy to change the stations with the stalk on the sport wheel though.

I understand the points you are making , but this assumes that the engine does not reach the limit of breathing capacity caused by restrictions in cam lift , intake diameter and fuelling at high rpms. Regardless of the electronic rev limiter , most engines reach their maximum output in Hp below the maximum rev range. Your comments on the sport chrono and published horsepower curves assume that the horsepower would continue to increase right up to the red line , were the electronic throttle control not to reduce the throttle input . I can only assume that you are privvy to either DYNO plots or some other technical resource to substantiate this. From the technical data I have seen , it looks to me like the softening of the throttle occurs after the horsepower curve has started to flatten and decrease. Surely if the horsepower and torque are tailing off beyond a certain point , it is better to change up and make use of the taller gearing of the next ratio to achieve continued acceleration. I may not be a consultant but I do have an engineering background so understand the concepts you refer to. There are a few technical documents in other places of the forum designed for the more technical explanations. I have read all of these in relation to sport chrono function and can find no mention of the maximum horsepower or torque being increased as a result of the system being active. The only vehicles that do benefit from faster 0-60 times as a result of sport chrono are i beleive the 997 gen 2 when fitted in conjunction with PDK. The benefit in 0-60 time being achieved by launch control. I am interested to hear your opinion , and any info you may have relating to the "open loop" potential of the M96 engine.

As a new member to the forum you may not be aware of the Porsche technical information available for contributing members. The link below details a more technical explanation of the sport chrono and engine function from the manufacturer. Whilst it is evident you already understand the basis of this technology from your above post , this document may be of interest to you , both on this subject and as reference.

http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?a...p;showfile=1364

I believe the key comment in this document is -

"The sport chrono function facilitates additional acceleration potential through the use of an abrupt engine speed cut -off by switching off individual cylinders (injection and ignition) in a rotating fashion just shortly before the engine speed limit. The perceptible limit of acceleration lets the driver know if an upshift is executed too late. This allows the driver to learn how to identify the optimum shift point with more accuracy and to make better use of the engines full potential for acceleration"

I read this as no additional performance , but a different characteristic that in certain circumstances , such as the track , may be of increased benefit.

Coming back to the original post and question of retro fitting the system , I beleive there are many other options open to the owner to improve driving enjoyment, performance or track lap times before going to this costly option.

As to performance tweaks , yes these are always going to be of interest to all of us , but I do not see this as particularly cost effective or worth while for the vast majority. Track junkies and budding race car drivers may however see this as worthwhile when other avenues to improvment have been exhausted.

In relation to the subject of acceleration and 0-60 times , the sport chrono would only benefit the actual time if the e gas or throttle softening were to be active in second gear with the speed below 60 mph. There will still be a need to change between 1st and second gears. Personally i dont have access to the kind of accurate timing gear needed to substantiate the difference, but to be honest i think the benefits would be within the realms of statistical and driver variability.

Please do not take my posts as condecending or being a "know all" , this is not my intention. I am merely expressing an opinion and representing the facts and knowledge that I have researched as an interested individual. After all , that's the point of great forums such as these.

Good to hear from a fellow engineer. Here's the simplest way to think about the shift points when looking at a horsepower curve. At any time, you want the engine to be developing maximum horsepower. You NEVER want to shift AT the horsepower peak. Here's why:

Almost all high performance cars achieve their maximum horsepower before redline. From the horsepower peak, there will be some dropoff until you reach maximum rpm. Look at the horsepower level at maximum rpm, and compare that to the horsepower you'll be at if you shift into the next higher gear, at a lower rpm. In virtually every high performance car, you'll be better off staying in the lower gear all the way to redline, since the horsepower there will be higher than the horsepower in the next higher gear, at a much lower rpm. Shifting early not only deprives you of that last few hundred rpm at high horsepower, it also drops you to a much lower horsepower at the start of the next gear.

There is no horsepower increase with Sport Chrono, only the ability to extract full power from the last 500 rpm or so. That's why the Sport Chrono car will acellerate faster than the non Sport Chrono car.

Forgetting the name calling and so on , the Cayman S generates maximum power at 6250 rpm , thereafter the power drops off. The maximum torque is generated between 4300 and 6000 rpm. A higher rev cut out will indeed allow you to stay in gear longer , but if the ratios are properly set , changing at below the rev limiter will still allow the engine to generate maximum torque and be on the gradient of increasing horsepower. Porsche do not comment on the sport chrono function giving any increased performance in terms of available horsepower , they stipulate the function increases the sensitivity of the throttle response. Obviously if a press release stating that the variocam can be adjusted in sport mode releasing more horsepower , than I stand to be corrected. I have a vehicle equipped with this function and have not found any noticeable increase in performance in terms of maximum speed or 0-60 time. It is possible that this system may benefit in cases where the response of the throttle may allow a quicker overtaking manouver and this is where I use the function if required. The PSM also cuts in later when the SPORT mode is selected, since PSM activates braking and adjusts power to prevent skidding this may be of benefit on track in the hands of an experienced driver. There is however also the option on every 987 to turn OFF the PSM completely.

In reply to the original post , the benefits of retro fitting this system in terms of true Hp are marginal , if non existent. Good tuition on a track of how to drive the car better will yield quicker and better results. If the car is driven on the road , having the ECU rempaped is probably the quickest and cheapest route to a true performance gain. If you are interested in significant performance gains that can genuinely translate into repeatable 0-60 improvments and top speed , then the costs are significant and the gains diminish as the cost increases.

As a guide , the Exhaust and manifolds are a few thousand dollars releasing between 15 and 25 hp , the ECU remap can add another 10 hp. Throttle body mods and cams come next and require the previous mods to to the exhuast and ECU to be in place to get the benefits. Alternatives of superchargers such as the RUF 3400K exist , though these require extensive reworking of the cooling system as well as engine. Engine transplants and rebores to increase cubic capacity are another option , 9FF have a number of tuning programs based on this method. You can spend between a few hundred dollars for an ECU remap giving 10 -20 hp up to tens of thousands for an engine rebuild or supercharger/ turbo conversion giving 400 hp.

Having recently attended a track day where all generations of boxsters were present 986S, 987S (3.2) 987S (3.4) and RS60 , with 260 , 280 , 295 303 horsepower it was interesting to see that the quicker cars were always driven by those that had recieved tuition or had more track experience , often the 986S models lapping faster than the 987S , so I stand by my original comment that ability will always outshine power.

Yes, I agree let's forget the name calling and stick to the issues. I'm an engineer that's done some consulting work for the major car companies. Once you'll read the description of Sport Chrono, you'll understand what it really does. I'm not sure what 'the gradient of increasing horsepower' is, but allowing full power all the way to redline will give you better acceleration on pretty much any high performance car, the Cayman S included. There are some basic technical reasons why - it's not a point of argument or opinion, just basic engineering. You can calculate the optimum shift points from horsepower vs rpm curve. In general, horsepower not torque determines acceleration.

Here is a pretty good summary of what Sport Chrono does:

Benefits of Sport Chrono:

Most benefits are self explanatory, except for the Hard Rev Limiter. To fully understand the benefit of the Hard Rev Limiter, we first need to define some terms.

What is a Rev Limiter? - A rev limiter is a safety device that cuts fuel, ignition or both at a specified RPM to prevent an engine from continuing to rev beyond its mechanical safety limit.

Hard Rev Limiter - The most basic of rev limiters, a Hard Rev Limiter does nothing until the engine reaches the predefined engine speed at which point fuel and ignition are shut off. This can be very abrupt and hard on the power train as the engine cycles on and off between full power and no power. The very first rev limiters installed were all hard rev limiters.

Soft Rev Limiter - Because hitting a hard rev limiter can be uncomfortable for the driver and hard on the car, manufacturers created the 'Soft Rev Limiter'. A Soft Rev Limiter reduces power output by retarding ignition timing as the engine approaches its limit. This usually begins about 500 RPMs before the hard cut off point. As the ignition timing is retarded and power drops off, the resulting feeling of power loss signals the driver that it's time to shift. If a driver ignores this, ignition timing is retarded further until the rev limit is reached at which point the resulting cut off is much 'softer' because the engine is not being cycled on and off between full power and no power. All Caymans come with a Soft Rev Limiter.

How does Sport Chrono affect the Rev Limiter? - Sport Chrono does not change the cut off RPM, which remains at 7,300 RPMs on cars with or without Sport Chrono Package. It simply removes the 'Soft' cut off that begins at 6,800 RPMs and allows the engine to produce full power from 6,800 - 7,300 RPMs. A car without Sport Chrono will start losing power at 6,800 RPMs and continue loosing power progressively until 7,300 RPMs where the hard cut off will finally be reached. Sport Chrono Package will replace the Cayman's Soft Rev Limiter with a Hard Rev Llimiter during Sport Mode.

No one has ever quantified the difference in horsepower in the 6,800 - 7,300 RPM range, but it is there by design and undisputable. Anyone with Sport Chrono can attest that the engine will rush to the hard cut off in Sport mode, where in normal mode they can obviously feel the flat spot.

Most owners who have Sport Chrono say they love the way it makes the car feel and that they use it quite often. This feature works nicely in conjunction with many of the other options like PASM, TipTronic S and Sport Exhaust to give the Cayman a 'Jeckel & Hyde' personality. At one moment ready for a night on the town, and the next moment ready to be a track day star. Features like this help make this incredibly capable car more forgiving when also used as a daily driver.

Yes, Sport Chrono does come with an analog/digital stop watch which is useful when tracking lap times. Sport Chrono Plus with PCM interface also stores lap times and history data in the PCM interface. These features are really best appreciated on the track when lap times are of interest to you, but all of the other features are just as much fun on the street.

Research this option here and you will come to the conclusion that most people who did not buy it wish they had. Start with the suggested reading below and try using the search option.

Drawbacks of Sport Chrono:

Some people don't like the idea of having two throttle control maps. I has been argued that practicing in one map will make your reflexes less familiar with the other map.

Another budding race car driver looking for those all important tenths off their 0-60 time ? Personally I think these questions on improving an already great car are in the main , pointless. Better to really learn how to drive these cars properly and enjoy the standard handling and performance rather than getting hung up on 10ths of a second to sixty that make no real world difference. Unless you are up to serious competition driving standards and running a stripped out racer these soft tweaks have no effect. If you are lookng for a sharper throttle response you can get the same effect by having the ECU remapped though the driving in traffic becomes more jerky.

Another budding 'know-it-all'. Anyone who says that modifications to an "already great car are in the main, pointless." really doesn't understand performance cars or people. If you've been on the track at all, you'd know what I'm talking about.

Get in the weight room, and start building your calf muscles. Hire a personal trainer if you must. This will help you excellerate 25% faster...just like Sport Chrono. Then buy a Rolex Dayton for the timing function. This will be less money too. Good luck finding a Daytona! :)

The Sport Chrono function does one important thing that most people don't realize. Without the Sport Chrono there is a 'soft' cutout at 6800 rpm or so, where the power is gradually decreased up until redline. The bottom line is that you don't get full power for the last 500 rpm, but you get a smoother cutout when you hit the rev limiter. With the Sport Chrono you have full power right up to redline, and then nothing. Very abrupt, hard on the tranny, not smooth, but if you're a good driver it allows you to extract more hp and acceleration from the car. That's why a Sport Chrono car shows quicker acelleration numbers than a non-SC car.

So does any one had some "click" sound (sound like some thing is loosing) in the Cayman S? He said there is a recall on this?

thanks

For an aftermarket part or modification to void your warranty, the factory service dept. has to be able to prove that the modification caused the problem that you bring it in for, and it would only void the warranty for that part or system. The GIAC software may be detectable by the PIWIS computer (I don't know for sure), but just having it wouldn't necessarily void your whole warranty.

Actually the better way to think about Magnussen-Moss act (dealer can only refuse a warranty if the modded part was the cause), is that the dealer can refuse anything they want. Then YOU will have to prove that the modded part DID NOT cause the problem. This has happened to quite a few people, and unfortunately the dealer has more $'s and resources than you. Best bet is to just ask your particular dealer. Some are very accomodating, some are ridiculous.

The dealer meetings are happening this week/next week. I'm waiting to order a Cayman RS. Hopefully my dealer will get some ordering information in the next week.

I was just at the dealer yesterday, and they had a car with them on the floor. If you are large, they are a bit tight. I am 6'2", and around 250, and they were a bit tight. Very nice for Auto Cross, but not wonderful for any long distance drives. (NO wiggle room, not much adjustment - fore and aft only).

Coming from the power seats, I guess I am spoiled by the adjustability of those.

I did not find them very difficult to get in and out of, but they were not as easy as normal seating. For looks alone, they would be a real tempting choice!

A bit tight for you is good for me - I'm 5'9" 160 lbs. How was the seat height? I like to sit faily high, and I'm worried the seat will put me too low. I would guess that if you were at the limit of headroom, that might be about right for me. Auto Cross and tracking is what I'll be spending a good amount of time doing, I'll switch to a a highway cruiser for longer drives. Thanks for the information!

In my modest opinion, unless you are talking about the GT3 style seats, no OEM seat will provide you with ideal support for Autocross or Tracking. I would probably just get the regular seats and use the extra $$$ to buy a pair of Recaros or Sparcos that fit you perfectly to use during the 'track season'. A good installer will make sure you have a setup that allows for easy change between seats (15 to 20 min).

I currently have Kirkey's in my car (which I do not recommend to you because of the 'less than polished look'), but they feel comfortable even in the longer drives. You might be surprised by how comfortable the aftermarket seats are if you get the right size for you. You will most likely not even feel the need to switch between OEM and Aftermarket seats that frequently!

Best,

Gus

I hear what you're saying, but from the limited amount of information I've heard about these seats, they are much better than the GT3 seats. Additionally they have side and thorax airbags, and I won't have to pay extra for track seats. They're the same seats offered as standard in the GT2 and people are raving about them. I just need to see if they are OK for me, and it's tough to find a car with them to sit in.

I was just at the dealer yesterday, and they had a car with them on the floor. If you are large, they are a bit tight. I am 6'2", and around 250, and they were a bit tight. Very nice for Auto Cross, but not wonderful for any long distance drives. (NO wiggle room, not much adjustment - fore and aft only).

Coming from the power seats, I guess I am spoiled by the adjustability of those.

I did not find them very difficult to get in and out of, but they were not as easy as normal seating. For looks alone, they would be a real tempting choice!

A bit tight for you is good for me - I'm 5'9" 160 lbs. How was the seat height? I like to sit faily high, and I'm worried the seat will put me too low. I would guess that if you were at the limit of headroom, that might be about right for me. Auto Cross and tracking is what I'll be spending a good amount of time doing, I'll switch to a a highway cruiser for longer drives. Thanks for the information!

I'm looking seriously at the new Sports Bucket Seats with the carbon fiber backs. Does anyone have any experience with them? I'm really interested in impressions on comfort, adjustment etc...

Thanks.