Jake Raby

just don't want to hear pre-mature generalization

Nothing premature here.. This engine has been apart for a good while and I have just now posted the pics and shared a few comments.

The M96 engine article in the "Tech Forum" of the December 08 Excellence Magazine will touch on this subject and feature highlights of our re-design program for the M96. You'll soon see just how serious we have taken this challenge.

Sorry to hear about your shaft, but your conclusions are at best hypotheses. It is unfortunate, but I doubt the LWFW played as large a role as you FEEL. I'm with RPM...you should start with an Mk. II variant...

This wasn't my shaft- It belongs to a really good Client that wants more performance and some better parts to help avoid these problems in the future.

My statements may be hypothetical at this point, but RPM alone doesn't cause this sort of failure. Unlike most individuals I will dig to the bottom of an issue to uncover the true source of the problem. We are doing this with this X 51 just like the other M96 engines we are documenting after they fail. We feel that it is much easier to create real solutions to issues if they are fully understood, and sharing these just might save someone else several thousand dollars.

What I stated isn't just what I FEEL, but I have collected the data to support the claim-

We have a front mounted harmonic damper in testing that should significantly reduce the issues that arise when the dual mass is removed or when some imbalance exists.

Its just like pretty much any other engine.. The factory will produce it and a few innovators will make it better, mostly through trial and error..

The component thats replacing this one is entirely over-kill, it won't happen again. It probably would not have occurred anyway if the dual mass flywheel would have remained in place.

Keep in mind that this engine has 12,000 TRACK miles on it, that means it could have ran at Le man 4 complete 24 hour events.

WOW, this is one of the more extrememfailures I have ever witnessed from any engine.... Its not too often that a crankshaft shears on the track on an engine that has 7 main bearings, but this one **** sure did!

The engine has the 3.6 X-51 package and was making 325 RWHP and had seen TWELVE THOUSAND track miles prior to this failure. We had initially thought the engine had broken a rod due to the material that came from the oil sump, but as soon as the engine arrived at our facility a 5 minute inspection found the crankshaft to be in two pieces!

The material these cranks are made from is powdered metal, it's what most modern engines use for crankshaft and connecting rod materials and I am less than ompressed with it thus far. I can't believe that a component with such mass could break so extremely.

I feel that this failure was attributed to by a couple of things-

1- The engine was "upgraded" to a lightened flywheel. This new flywheel was installed onto the existing stock engine without being balanced to that assembly. This created an imbalance in the rotating mass AND it did away with the factory dual mass flywheel.

2- The dual mass flywheel was removed to alow the single mass lightened unit to be installed. This eliminated ALL MEANS OF HARMONIC DAMPENING!! The crankshaft was forced to absorb ALL harmonics from the engine and transaxle when the dual mass unit was removed..

So- adding the light weight flywheel was a double negative, not only did it create imbalance, it also eliminated the harmonic dampening of the dual mass arrangement.

Due to this I feel that adding a lightweight flywheel to any existing engine is not a wise decision, and that they should only be added when the entire rotating mass can be balanced and indexed to accomodate the lightweight unit. This means engine disassembly, so I'd only add one of these when doing one of our performance upgrades so the entire assembly can be precisely balanced.

This X 51 will be going back together with our 3.8 package applied using LN Nickies cylinders. It will see some head work upgrades along with severe duty valves and Len's spring package. We'll be upgrading the rods from the stock powdered metal units to LN Billet connecting rods and we'll also be applying many oil system mods to this one. Since the crank needed to be replaced, a Flat Six Innovations Billet Chromoly Crankshaft is being used (instead of another Porsche powdered metal unit) and is in the process of being made now. I feel quite certain that these mods and materials will eliminate failures in the future when coupled to our balance and assembly procedures.

Target for this engine is 425HP at the flywheel N/A

Now, here are some pics of the autopsy. Very few eyes have ever seen the anatomy of an X 51 this deeply-

I am an hour north of Atlanta

The M96 engine is our specialty :-)

Thanks for all the feedback. I can hardly wait for the clutch to start slipping!

Cool!!! You can accelerate the clutch failure if you'd like... We are ready when you are! Break that sucker!

Hello,

I am Jake Raby,

creator of the Flat 6 Innnovations M96 engine program.. I'll go over your post below in detail.

I'm a very experienced motor rebuilder and long time auto mechanic - although 20 years removed from doing any pro wrenching. One year ago tomorrow, I took possession of a 2000 Boxster S, in immaculate condition. Other than my having to disassemble the CD300 changer to remove a stuck CD, I've had absolutely no trouble with the car and totally love it 1 year and 20,000+ miles later.

Great, you sound like a much more advanced "wrench" than most Boxster owners. Fortunately for you as well as the at home Enthusiasts we are now offering ready to assemble engine assembly packages along with training DVDs and formal workshops on the engines, and how to use our updated components to assemble stock or Performance M96 engines.. Each package comes with full block boring and Nikisil sleeving and we can take your 3.2 to a 3.4 or 3.5 engine with two different kit assemblies that include everything needed to complete the engine, it's all balanced and all engineered by yours truly to be compatible- just like our developmental engines. All kits have our billet IMS, oil system upgrades, Nikies cylinders and JE pistons and even fully prepped, ready to bolt on heads.

My question is simply this - Can the displacement of the stock motor be increased by larger diameter sleeves and/or through boring the cylinders? I've found nothing on this topic, and I'm not implying there's anything wrong with the way the car performs now, but as I have an insatiable curiosity regarding this, and have found virtually no information on the subject; thought I'd post my interest here.

What you desire was previously not available, but my company and LN Engineering have been working behind the scenes for 3 years to make this possible and the results are stunning. The 2.5 engines go to 2.75 liters.. the 2.7s go to 2.9 and the 3.2 can go 3.4, 3.5 or 3.6 liters. The 3.6s are now going to 3.8 and possibly 4 liters. The cylinder boring process is difficult and costly to make an arrangement that is really effective.

If it's possible I might consider doing it over the course of a coming winter, as I'm sensing the chassis (optional turbo 18" wheels) could easily handle more torque and power, and although there's been no discernible diminishing of its performance, the only weakness I detected on taking possession was that the previous owner rode the clutch, and my monitoring tells me I'll need to replace it (and all other accesable replaceables once exposed) within the next 30,000 or so

Preventive measures like a replacement of the IMS and a tear down/ update of the engine before it's necessary is a MUCH cheaper alternative to do the work after the engine fails.

So thinking how much I enjoy motor rebuilding (I've really missed that time in my life), just wondering what displacement options would be available since other than machine shop work, all other labor would be at no cost.

One reason the Boxster engine has been touched by so few people is because it's a ***** to assemble if you don't have step by step direction and if you don't have the proper tools. I have been assembling engines since age 8 and have hundreds of builds under my belt, the M96 is it's own beast and it isn't easy to build at all..

Our program is being developed to offer turn key performance engines, both N/A or boosted as turn key packages, but the big hit has been the engine kit program that will empower local shops to assemble these engines with our support, our tools, our parts and our training.. A similar training session done at our facility or on DVD is coming for the enthusiast in 2009.

If you have 20 years of experience, you could do the job yourself but you'll need the special tools and lots of patience to do the job. The M96 is nothing like you've experienced in thae past and you must realize that now- if not it WILL tame you quick!

Let me know if you have any questions... 350 HP is just around the corner :-)

Yep, looks like it was redlined once at 198 hours..

I'll post mine next week.... I hold the test car against the rev limiter for two miles at a time in 2nd gear, and sometimes just fire it up in neutral and hold it to the floor for several minutes at a time...

It's brutal and I love it.

We'll see what happens when i treat it like this with boost.

Again it sounds like either the AOS or the fuel pressure spiked and dumped a ton of fuel into the cylinders.. The rings will allow the fuel to weep past them and mix with the oil.

You have come conflicting symptoms, things don't add up.

First read sounds like a fuel problem to me.....would start there, especially looking at the fuel pump and pump circuit.

Here is another twist to the problem.....If I give the car a shot of ether, it will fire and then stall again.

Definately fuel delivery then.... Sounds like the pump died or you have a blockage in the filter or lines..

DO NOT start the Boxster engine with Ether!! These engines are high compression (11:1+) and they won't tolerate Ether as they have somewhat cheesy pistons anyway!

Yep.. Smoke that comes from high fuel pressure and rich running would be black..

Is this smoke bluish white or is it steamy white??? Can you get a pic of it???

I upgrade all engines to thread in steel or brass plugs, this is a preventive measure thats wise to do.

Looks like you have issues for sure..

LN and I work closely together and have been partners with the development of the Boster engine program.

I can supply a "kit" of components along with LN's block work that will all be complimentary and provide a package thats easy to install and features engineered compatability. This will make it much easier for your mechanic and yourself to get positive results on the first try.

We have a tool rental program as well as all the rebuild parts, if you/ he are interested. Our program is being optimized to assist local shops with these rebuilds and updates more than anything else.

Keeping the outsourcing limited is the key to compatible components and a good overall experience. The Boxster engine is so unknown at this point few know the exact compatability of it's internals.

You may want to think more about the camshaft profiles as altering them vastly alters the fuel curves and can easily create issues that you will not like to overcome. The stock cams are more than adequate for most applications and offer excellent drive-ability when coupled to one of our hand prepped cylinder head packages and maybe some added bore size.

We can change the profiles of the cams that you currently have, no problem. The upgrade to 3.6 is also something that we can assist with.. What are the current plans for the engine??

I'd be happy to assist you in any way possible.

Jake Raby

First off, have your mechanic become one of our authorized installers, its a simple process that will make our support and assistance that much better.

I am working on the creation of an "upgrade package" that has all the contents needed to bullet proff any current engine including the block work, IMS bearing upgrade, etc, etc. These will be posted next week.

Replacing the IMS now is always good because a failure can wipe the whole engine out, BUT you can also experience a D chunk failure after the IMS updates, so while the engine is apart the smart consumer will upgrade the liners and the IM at the same time, doing this means that the labor costs for assembly are the same.

Having a liner failure after an IMS upgrade would suck really badly. This is the reason why ALL our engines come with ALL the upgrades as standard. You may be able to buy the whole engine from the source for less than your mechanic will charge, something to explore.

There are many failure points for the IMS, starting with the bolt on the end. Their replacement IMS has much more bearing surfaces than the OEM part and shouldn't fail. Their IMS bolts are more than twice as strong as the OEM ones

Replacement IMS are available on a replacement basis now

They are working on more replacement parts and tools, and are planning training programs for engine rebuilders

This is the program that we are working on together. The training and replacement/ update parts and instructional DVDs on how to use them are just around the corner for release.

Once an engine disintegrates, it's usually too late to upgrade to their improved parts. Their parts are intended to rebuild functioning engines

Thats according to how bad it fails, cylinder failures are generally 90% repairable, but starting with an engine that only has symptoms is much better than one that has fully failed.

Not sure if the bored-out 2.7 to 2.9 engine will pass smog inspections. Not something they have to worry about where they are located.

We don't have to worry about it either.. I don't plan on selling the engines in states that would be questionable as to the legality of the mods, thats a hassle that we don't have time to contend with, even if it results in lost sales.

During their remanufacturing process, the cylinders are bored out and the Nickie liners are put into place. This is the same technology and materials used successfully on air cooled Porsche engines

We have worked together to hone this material and the assembly processes on the air-cooled models as well. I used the first set of their air-cooled cylinders in 1999 and have used hundreds since.

Even though the stock thermostats are rated to 180°, they have found they run hotter than rated. They sell a lower temperature thermostat option

Thats something we are testing now and we believe will dramatically increase the life of OE non upgraded engines that generally fail at higher water temps and oil temps.

They have adapters for external oil coolers

And these are sold through our online store, along with the other components that comprise the updated oil system.

Porsche is out of remanufactured 2.5 engines

They were, but they did another run. There are currently 16 engines in the system for the 2.5. (thats the number as of last Thursday)

If you don't like any of these comments, or disagree, don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. Here are my observations:

They are in the business of selling parts, so no way for me to judge relative quality of oil filter technologies. I didn't correlate against expertise on BITOG

Together my Company and LN Engineering do a tremendous amount of R&D. You can rest assured that anything we sell is fully tested and being used in our own test vehicles, else it won't be sold. At my facility we have a full test lab and to either of us solving the issues that Porsche created are much more rewarding than making a single dollar- we did this with the air-cooled engines and are using the same intensity to do this with the Boxster and 996.

I will reply to your post in detail below. LN engineering and I have been working exclusively together on the Boxster and 996 engine development from the beginning and for the past decade with air-cooled Porsches as well. I was going to be in attendance at the GAF myself, but when the show was canceled earlier in the year I made alternative plans (instructional video filming) that made my presence an impossibility.

I went up to Ventura yesterday for the German Auto Fest, which prior to this year was an annual local get together for showing off cars and vendors to hawk their wares to everyone who drinks the Porsche Kool-Aid. This year's show was poorly advertised and very few vendors in attendance, but LN Engineering was there. Since the event was so sparsely attended, I had a chance to talk with the woman at the booth for about 20 minutes without interruption. Here's a summary of the interesting points and my observations of their parts

That was Charles' Wife, Tammy.

Her comments, based on my memory of the discussion (caveat - I don't know much about engines or engine technologies, and they are magical contraptions as far as I'm concerned):

There are a lot of plastic parts inside the M96 engines, much more than anyone would expect, and many are potential failure points

It doesn't seem to matter if the cars are driven hard or babied. There's a high correlation between not driving the cars and engine failures. If the cars sit, the engines are much more likely to fail

There are lots of plastic parts internally and they are breaking. We are eliminating as many of these as possible. Some of them aren't easy to replace with a higher grade component, especially those in the oiling system.

The stock oil filter elements do a poor job. They sell an adapter that lets you use spin-on oil filters that do are much more effective. She specifically mentioned the Mobil-1 spin on filter as working well (don't remember the other brand)

They have a part to increase the oil capacity of the engine

We have lots of oil system update components in the final stages of completion and testing, some of these are items currently offered by others that we have re-designed and others have originated from our partnered efforts from scratch. The oiling system is causing some failures and we are positive of this.

The quality of cast parts in the engines is pretty poor.Their machined billet replacement parts are significantly stronger than the OEM cast ones they replace.

Exactly.

Next post

yes, some areas [very limited] of the boxster engine can indeed be improved upon.

However, the glaring and still remaining weak-design areas of rheinmetall and kolbenschmidt still remain -I sincerely doubt that anyone [anywhere] is undertaking the task of, nor is there any substantiated evidence to support an undertaking of properly redesigning and re-casting the cylinder heads and/or crankcases/lokasil sleeves; it makes no sense to improve only part of a flawed system design. -a system is only as strong as its weakest link.

All the best,

Glenn

The sleeves are a done deal. The process we have perfected with our partnership with LN Engineering has taken care of the cylinder deficiencies.

The issues with less than adequate cases that are porous are very sparse compared to the cylinder issues and at this point aren't impacting the program very much at all. To date we have only seen a few heads that were damaged beyond repair/ update and those were limited to the 3.2 and 3.4 engines. if the program continues to flourish we'll be casting and producing our own replacement heads using CNC technology, but at the current time these are not a necessity.

No one has been concerned with that... Those who are can wait a tad longer and have us update THEIR core engine, avoiding a "core" replacement. This would maintain the original engine the car came from the factory with. Our mods are all internal and won't be notable from the outside.

Spark plugs tell all. :(

I had one engine fool me when doing a plug diagnosis recently.. If the fracture is minute enough, the plug may not show the issue.

It could be a cylinder that is fractured, not yet totally failed. This will give the symptoms of a blown head gasket and may not be enough to throw a CEL. These engines can be somewhat difficult to diagnose at times, especially when they haven't totally "failed" yet.. Several of the engines that we have torn down during development had symptoms similar to yours.

Jake,

I guess my comment is probably more relevant to the average guy maybe preferring the Porsche recon route to a third party rebuild, which looked around the same price.

But I love your concept of education/parts so you can DIY. And I also accept those that race etc would prefer the engine improvement route - If mine goes I would prefer this route also. I see it's also looking likely the recon supply will dry up.

One issue for alot of the guys not in the US, is that if you are out of warranty it costs alot to ship engines/cores around the world (I shipped a 3.6 from the US to the UAE so I know from experience!). Your concept would surely save us a stack by allowing us to only ship parts where possible.

Absolutely.. I sold my first engine to a paying customer at age 13... Being a car nut myself it's pretty easy to put myself in the place of the purchaser when prioritizing developments.

The 3.2>>3.6 has been the engine that has gotten the most response thus far, and we weren't expecting that as much because the 3.2 engines are newer and don't fail as frequently.

The Porsche program won't be around forever, especially for the early cars. The early Boxsters are already 12 years old and its a wonder that the factory has supported them as long as they have.

I would certainly rather offer training and engine component kits for the stock engines than to be in the business of supplying stock rebuilt engines.

Where we want to go is performance... Thats what demands a level of assembly that only a professional can offer that has developed a series of components and precedures to attain.

We have been forced to work with bone stock engines that only feature reliability and longevity upgrades to this point as we must learn from these stock engines are a must for us to interface with through the critical initial stages. This is so we can learn about them as comprehensively as possible and offer the best training and components based upon the data we have collected and our personal experiences.

We'll be offering stock rebuilds for at least the next couple of years as turn key complete dyno tested units.

Absolutely.. I sold my first engine to a paying customer at age 13... Being a car nut myself it's pretty easy to put myself in the place of the purchaser when prioritizing developments.

The 3.2>>3.6 has been the engine that has gotten the most response thus far, and we weren't expecting that as much because the 3.2 engines are newer and don't fail as frequently.

The first training sessions will begin in Summer 2009.

Hi Guys,

May be a little OT, but have you guys seen the price of the rebuilding at Autofarm.? Okay they are doing the Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block at the same time, and this is UK pricing, but still all options are 11K (US) plus.

I was under the impression that if you exchanged your core, a 03 996 factory recon engines from someone like Sunset are available for 12K US. Wouldn't most people go this route in the event of a situation like the above?

I simply wouldn't spend more than 4K for a rebuild. Say 3K for parts + 1K for labour. Anyone know how many hours it takes to rebuild a M96 engine to see if my labour is fair?

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

You will NEVER get a motor rebuild with parts for 4K it will be more like 7-8K, the parts are not mass produced like a SB Chevy you can order from Jegs. I personal y would rather have a rebuilt then a new motor since when you rebuid it you improve all the weak points.

That's about what you would pay to have a Subaru WRX engine rebuilt stock. It looks like Raby is coming out with a program to help owners do the rebuilds themselves, so that might be an option for you. Would certainly address the labor cost issue.

Part of our program will be offering DVDs and components "kits" to assist with repairs that are made by the owner. We will also be hosting 3 day formal training sessions with hands on experience here at our facility for both novices and professionals. These will include a package for machine work to the block and heads as well as upgraded components as an option for those who want to do the work themselves. These will be available for both stock and performance engines.

I have no desire to become a mass rebuilder of the engines in stock form, and do want to assist others in doing this job more easily as labor rates will only increase over time.

I have created very comprehensive engine kit programs for the aircooled engines that have allowed people that don't have a single tool in their garage and ZERO experience to assemble a complete performance engine, saving them as much as 5K for our labor expenses to assemble and Dyno the engine. The Boxster is the next engine to benefit from this program, just as comprehensively as it's aircooled cousins. The best part is the engine "kits" will be proven, so a performance engine will have the fuel MAP sorted and we can even program it for the customer, because we have designed the combination and standardized it so it won't be changed.

Lots of stuff is under way, but right now we are working hard to overcome the reliability issues and learn as much about these engines as possible.