txhokie4life

I'm looking to understand what the differences (other than displacement/hp) -- what are the technical differences

between the engines.

A pointer to an online reference would be great.

thanks,

M

I have a question about the use/purpose of the Porsche Cam alignment tool 9612 ( and the equivalent tools available from Baum Tools, ZDmax and Pelican). The descriptions say that the tools is used to secure the intake and exhaust cams in relation to each other when setting the cam timing. However, the relative position of the cams to each other seems to be controlled by the number of chains links on the sprockets and the cam tensioner/solenoid. You cannot change the relative position of the cams to each other once the chain is set on the sprocket. It seems that the real purpose of this tool is to set the position of the cams to the sprocket on the intermediate shaft chain, and thus the position of the cams relative to the crankshaft. Is this really the case?

This comes up for me on my project repairing the intermix problem on my car. For those of you who have been following my on-going project, after having the cracked head fix and reinstalling it, the car started up but blew an expansion plug out of the end of the 1-6 intake cam. The cams are actually hollow and carry pressurized oil to the journals on the cams. Each end of the cams has an expansion plug, and on occasion these can blow out, which can lead to a complete loss of oil quite quickly. In any case I caught mine if a few seconds and shut the engine down. It is not advisable to reuse the old expansion plug as it has already been deformed and could blow out again. Porsche does not sell a replacement plug ( they will only provide a new cam for $800+ as opposed to the plug which costs less than a dollar) and the plugs available in the US are the right diameter, but are two deep to go into the cam far enough to hold. I searched and searched but could not find a properly sized plug. So I found a used set of cams. When I removed the cams I marked the position of the sprocket from the IMS chain on the exhaust cam flange so that I could put everything back in the exact same position. However when removing the intake cam from the cam assembly, the chain came off both cams, so I had to reinstall the chain based on the colored links and marks on the cam. I did not think this would effect the marks on the exhaust cam flange and the IMS chain sprocket, but now when the engine is set at TDC and the marks are aligned, the cam groove is not straight up and down. So I want to make sure that the cams are set correctly relative to the crankshaft.

I have devised another way to rotate the cams to set the position, but I am perplexed that the sprocket and flange don’t seem to line up the way they did before. Any thoughts on this?

BTW, Sunset sells this tool for about $100. That is of course if you decide you need it -- We had it -- so we used it --

I personally haven't done the cam timing -- so I can't answer.

m

Check with a glass shop. I understand they use a fishing line type tool. Dental floss or fishing line might do it. Might need to apply some heat from a hair dryer or heat gun.

With my 70 911 I just parked it in the sune and waited for it to fall off.

That's one option. I guess the general question is there some kind of release from the mirror to the button on the windshield or does it slide up and off. I'm fearful of cracking the windshield since there is resistance to the slide off method. Ford uses a mirror release tool but I don't think it is used on Porsche. If I can't figure it out, I'll just remove the whole mirror and button from the glass and attach my new (used OEM) one with quality permatex mirror adhesive.

Once you get it down to just the button -- I was able to pop it off using a paint/wall scraper. I tried twisting it like many folks say and

I about broke my socket, and it didn't budge. Came off so easy with the scraper by putting it at the edge of the button and the glass

and tapping on it with a mallet. Doesn't "feel" too good to do that -- btu worked nicely with maybe 3 medium taps.

Good luck with it.

m

Engines side by side today.

way cool!

m

The car was flooded with fresh water 2 weeks ago -- I wouldn't worry about rust if it were cleaned out soon.

Heck give it to me -- I'll take my chances :-)

I'll be in DC in 2 weeks -- I take it then!

mike

Well, the 986 I bought April 2008 and spent countless hours on installing electronics, mods and paint restoration was totaled in a flash flood 2 weeks ago. This forum was tremendously helpful with all the work I did. I was having a few beers after a softball game at a local sports bar. The folks at the restaurant announced that the back parking lot was filling up fast from an overflowing creek with all the damned rain we've been having in the mid-atlantic region. By the time I got outside there was a river flowing through my car and mini cooper on my fender! I waded out when it was up to my trunk lid to try to rescue my laptop from the trunk... too late. By the time I made it back to higher ground it was over the roof!

My insurance company (State Farm) was really good and with the receipts I produced on the work put into the car, they gave me $28K. I really would have preferred to get my car back but such is life. I'm happy to report that I've already found and purchased a 2005 Boxster S with 6,300 miles on it and now begin the process of installing items to make it just right for me again.

I thought you might enjoy a few pictures of the mess the flood made of the car. Check out the "expensive German fishbowl" that used to be the front trunk.

Any chance the insurance company will let you buy it back and turn it into a track car :-)

Might be able to get it pretty darn cheap.

m

I have a high pitch wine sound on my 2000 carerra c2/c4. I was told it was the oil separator. The oil cap was almost impossible to remove while the engine was running. When it was removed the sound seemed to stop. Does this sound right?

If it is constant -- might be something else, but on start up I believe it is the AOS (air oil seperator) -- Mine has a nice whine until the DME decides

to lower idle (3.2S Boxster)

m

easy question for someone (other than me, anyway . . .) Is cylinder 6 on the driver's side or the passenger side. thanks!

Passenger side.

thanks!!!

Backwards on a Boxster right :-)

what does a system like that run? -- are you using that with your 2.7L DME instead of a 996 DME?

I ask because I might find myself with a 996 Engine and no DME, and was wondering what my options were.

Do I swap it in a Boxster, another 996, heart transplant for an older 911, etc.

m

Just answering myself: this is the piggy back Todd used : http://www.perfectpower.com/products/smt6.asp

Yes I do. Not sure if I will use it or I will use the piggybag system. Does anybody knows where did Todd got his piggybag system to control the variocam plus solenoids?

7500 shipped; I should get 2000 back when they get my working 2.7 .

30000 miles. 7500-2000 core.

$5500 out the door?

what did it cost to ship it?

As far as the number of miles you can also check the number of hours the motor has.

I assume that is stored in the DME -- but he does have that with this engine.

mike

Jim,

Thank you! I have never tried any electrical work. Sounds simple but a little intimidating This sounds like a really good idea especially in the summer here in L.A. So is the switch visable in the batwing?

Thanks again! great info :clapping:

Phillip

You have full control over the fans with a Duramatic as well.

You could then even monitor the exact engine and oil temperatures.

m

7500 shipped; I should get 2000 back when they get my working 2.7 .

30000 miles. 7500-2000 core.

$5500 out the door?

what did it cost to ship it?

m

As far as the number of miles you can also check the number of hours the motor has.

I assume that is stored in the DME -- but he does have that with this engine.

mike

30000 miles. 7500-2000 core.

$5500 out the door?

what did it cost to ship it?

m

Update:

Thanks, all, for your kind replies. (Boxtaboy, KGoertz, Dharn) but I'm afraid a rebuild is out of the question.

My mechanic called me this morning and shared the bad news: Hairline cracks in the cylinder walls of 5 & 6 (And 3 is also suspect). He found this out after doing a compression test and then bringing in one of those invasive medical scopes to peek around. So a new engine is my only choice. :( (Dharn - apparently the cracks are in the side walls, not the heads)

I'm going to get more details from him about the cause of such a major fault and asked him to document/photograph pretty much everything.

I'm also going to make sure that the RMS, IMS and sleeve issues have been answered before proceeding with the transplant. :angry:

...and people wonder why I have trust issues...

I too used LnEngineering for the IMS -- they also have the ability to relign the walls with Nikasils

I did not need these but was prepared to do it when I thought I had a cracked cylinder wall

m

Mike,

One thing that makes it more difficult than most is the fact that cylinders 4-6 must be assembled blindly with the special tools used for every portion of the piston installation.

A lot of the engineering of this engine does make sense, but as an assembler that uses the sense of feel more than anything else I dislike the fact that I can't feel the procedures of piston installation and moreover I can't see the components without the use of a borescope.

There are some aspects of the M96 that are more simple than an aircooled Porsche engine, including the cam timing and the special tools that make that so much simpler than an aircooled 911.

Perhaps the biggest mistake and set back that can be made is a wrist pin clip that doesn't properly seat into the piston. If this occurs as soon as the tool is extracted the clip flies into the depths of the engine and is lost, usually requiring disassembly to fetch it and that costs a day. Lots of dealerships have called us after making mistakes with engine assembly. The most commo failure stemmed from a wrist pin clip not being seated all the way on the 4-6 bank, which allowed the clip to dislodge during operation and the pin wasted the cylinder.. That has happened no less than 4 times and twice on the same engine at the same dealership!

You are Spot on here -- this was the #1 concern of ours -- we must have practiced a dozen times external to the engine, and sweated

out the process when we did it for real.

We crafted our own little tool to do this and used light and mirrors to confirm the "wrist pin clip" was properly seated... but

what a PITA!

I have seen some pretty costly mistakes made by those who have a ton of experience with other Porsche engines that tackle an M96 thinking it's similar to an aircooled 911. A lot of engine building is luck, and every time I assemble an engine I end up with a different set of challenges and some things that are more simple than they should be..

if you really want a challenge start adding stroke and bore to the engine.. Adding 100HP to a 3.2 "S" spec engine was the most difficult experience I have had yet.

Having our own tools made has been the key, especially for the lower tension rings that are compatible with our Nikisil liners as they are a real ***** to install with a normal ring compressor..

Rings were tough to get on as well -- but with some patience -- then we got it after a few tries on each piston. Almost had to go the Nikisil route :-)

but didn't have to experience that his go round.

We also had some trickiness getting the new IMS seated properly with the Timing Chain -- we had to disassemble the chain and redo it.

Not sure why it didn't go right the first time. but dropped in effortlessly the second time.

Jake -- thanks for taking the time to respond -- you are an invaluable resource -

I design computer chips for a living -- we don't get to look at or feel anything -- so I guess I'm used to a little blind faith :-)

Still doesn't make you anymore comfortable though......

thanks,

Mike

If its the head you have man options and I can easily assist you with the procedures and special tools to do this work correctly..

If it is the cylinders the entire engine needs to come apart to be repaired.... Thats when the men are separated from the boys.

Jake,

Having rebuilt a 3.2L S with a young mechanic only familiar with air cooled 911/914 engines, and this being my only engine rebuild experience,

what in your mind makes these engines difficult to work on?

i'm not questioning your wisdom, experience or opinion, I just don't know any better -- and I am curious to know what specifically

I should have considered hard. In some ways it all was, and in other ways everything seemed so well thought out and engineered

that things just made sense.

I'm sure our success was somewhat luck, a lot of ignorance and naivety, and a good bit of diligence and inherent skill by my colleague.

I will say making the connection of the connecting rod and the pistons and putting the bushing on with our homemade tool was

a little harrowing, but most other things seemed reasonable.

thanks,

Mike

:renntech:

Does anyone know if you can remove a cylinder head without removing the engine from the car??

Someone will be able to answer definitively -- but i do not think it is possible.

The heads sit along side the block and you would have to get access from the side.

mike

Hello All,

I'm new here - found this wonderful site while looking for Boxster info. I've got a '98 with 45,000 miles and severe engine trouble. It does not seem typical of what I've read about here though. I have antifreeze in my oil, antifreeze being blown out the tail pipe, and no compression on the passenger's side front cylinder (running on 5 out of 6 cylinders). The spark plug on said cylinder is smashed but the piston (from what I can see with a lit mirror) is OK. Are these engines known to "drop valves", or something of the sort?

Thanks in advance for any input.

You probably won't know what the real cause is until you pull the engine. And depending on your repair choices -- you may never choose to find out.

Either way you are looking at a complete rebuild most likely, salvage engine, or crate engine from Porsche.

Depending on who does the work, guessing ~$6-8K, ~6k-$7k, $11-13K, respectively.

I bought an '00S with a blown freeze plug in the heads, but I didn't have any cylinder or spark plug problems.

Root cause was a bad water pump.

My friend had a shattered spark plug, but he had the engine replaced by the dealer -- he never had it disassembled.

If you are in/around Austin, Texas -- I can help you, otherwise good luck,

M

Search and you shall receive, but I'll digest it for you:

From what I've read, the first run of 997s have a double-race bearing that is prone to failure for a number of reasons, with more than a few articles on the subject by reputable Porsche wonks. They moved to a larger single-race bearing which supposedly prevents future IMS issues, and all the replacement engines have been upgraded with that bearing. Since this is a forum for technical issues, you'll see a lot more "my engine broke!" threads and commenters than the "mine's fine" crowd. No one complains when things are going right...

I bought an 05 with just under 10k on it and the engine checked out fine. I got mine Porsche certified too, so if something breaks in the next 2 years I'm covered. If the engine grenades, it's suggested here by some senior members (RFM for example) that Porsche will even take care of it out of warranty in some cases.

I guess the best thing to do is keep up on your maintenance and document everything so if there is a problem, you have records on your side. Until then, I'd drive it like it's meant to be driven and don't worry about it. The 997 C2S is a VERY nice upgrade and well worth it IMO.

Mark

I spent most of my time in the 996 forum. I am considering upgrading from a 2001 C2 to a 2005 C2S. The car that I am looking at is Porsche Certified and has about 25,000 miles on it. If I buy it, I have two years left on the warranty. My concern is that according to the dealer it has a "new" engine with "less than 500 miles" on it. The 996's are notorious for RMS problems, but so far (100k miles) I have avoided engine problems in my 996 so I take what I read with a grain of salt. I searched this forum for engine problems and they don't seem too bad. What do you folks think? Are replacement engines as likely to fail as an original engine? Will my replacement last 100,000 miles? Would you hold off on buying a 2005 because of engine problems?

Negotiate your best deal -- then get cold feet about the new engine, start to walk out -- when the call you back just whine about how uncomfortable you are about another engine

failure and get them to give you a 100K warranty or comparable.

m

Oh Boy, another major problem! Replaced the pulse sender today and got the engine back in the car. The good news is the engine started right up. The bad news is within 15 seconds or so I had a major oil leak. The green cam plug for the intake cam on the 1-3 head that was fixed had popped out. I was not too surprised at this because in reassembling the engine I had noticed a problem. When I went to put in the cam plugs I found that the hole for this cam plug was distorted. In looking closely at the head I saw that it appeared to have been dropped and slightly bent at this location. I then looked at the FedEx Ground box and saw the damaged to the box that I had not noticed. As an aside the shipment was insured for $500, but I don’t know if or how to collect from FedEX. In any case, it was very hard to get tis plug in as the head was bent in slightly at this location. It had not affected the cam journal so I decided to go ahead in install the plug and see if it leaked. If it did I assumed that I could dremel the hole round or have it machined.

Initially I thought that it was jut this plug coming loose. But when I looked at the puddle of oil I found the small metal cap that is in the picture next to the green plug. This is obviously one of the plug used to seal off oil and water passages in the head. It had come out with the oil. However, at the location of the cam plug/cam journal there is now way a metal plug from elsewhere in the head could get out at this spot

So I talked to John Edwards at Costa Mesa R&D and he had a cam there and confirmed that the cams have plugs in both ends. The plugs a about .590” or 15mm. he said that you can buy them at a NAPA store and reinsert one with a wood or metal drift. He did not think I would have to take it to a machine shop, but could do it jut by putting the engine of the ground to have good access to the end of the head. It had to be the oil pressure when this cap cam out that forced out the cam plug. I only expected I might have a slight leak, not oil pouring out of the engine. I am thinking that the plug could have been damaged by the cam holding tool that I fabricated as it allowed the bolt that went into the end of the cam to push against the plug.

Any one have any experience with this?

I am going to take a break for a few days, as I have been spending a huge amount of time on this in the afternoons and evening, and we are going out of town tomorrow for a wedding ( I had hoped to drive the car to the wedding, but that isn’t going to happen). Next week I guess I will drop the engine again ( with the practice I have had in the last two drops I have it down to about 3-4 hours) and try to put in a new plug. May not be as major a problem as I first thought, but what a hassle!! (or an adventure).

bummer -- I had a machine shop weld mine back in. why take the chance it pops out at a less opportune time.

it was cheap (<$100)

m

to keep this short, this will be in listed, in order of events.

1. shortly after replacing heat control valve, my CEL comes up, but i have a feeling its the o2 sensors again.

2. i meet up with my old college friend for one drink. I drove him home but he didn't tell me he was freaking plastered. Nothing, he didn't say a word. stopped at a light and he threw up in my car. and it was a big dinner.

3. bring car in to 24 hour car wash for major interior cleaning. they wanted 100 dollars from me, trying to rip me off, but i had no choice. if i didn't get this out now, the smell will be there longer. ok so i get them to clean it. they clean and freaking smoke around my car to make things worse.

4. they spray dis infectant on my A/C controller module on the dashboard, didnt' think too much of it, but ...

5. when i'm about to leave my climate control module goes haywire. sporadic, out of control. NON OF THE buttons work. its 88 degrees tonight and the A/C module will randomly blow warm air like its the dead of winter.

only thing that worked out today was that my convertible top. or else i would have seriously burned my car down to the ground.

end of story, and time for bed. will contemplate if i'll be going to work tomorow.

i don't even care about the vomitting that much, he was my friend. what can i say, you know. but fack, my A/C control module. Why Why Why Why Why.

-Rui725asfas;fjjkl;sjkl; asdjklf ajkl;sf

bites, yes, but.......

Worst day would have been your buddy drives home and you didn't know he was plowed until you end

up cleaning other bio-hazards from the carpet..... then it wouldn't matter what your AC unit was doing.

Let the AC unit dry out -- maybe it will work just fine.....

Then hit your buddy up for the cleaning bill -- or make him pay for the drinks next time AND the cab ride home.

m

I was in a similar situation last summer - IMS failure in my 2000 Boxster S; PCNA declined to help despite two previous defective engines; high initial quote from dealer. I wasn't aware of the work of Jake Raby at that time, so it seemed that my options were either a junkyard engine or a new engine from my dealer. I didn't want to take the chance with the junkyard engine, especially since I heard that the dealer engine would have updates to the IMS and other problem components.

I wasn't happy with the dealer quote, so I investigated sourcing the engine from Sunset Porsche in Oregon (I'm in CA) and having a good local mechanic install it. Sunset's price for the engine was thousands less than my dealer's. (I believe the number was $8900.) I would have to pay to get it shipped and would also have to pay for shipping the old "core" back to them. However, the shipping costs (about $400 each way) were offset by the fact that I wouldn't have to pay sales tax on the engine purchased out of state. I got a quote of $2000 for installation by a very good independent Porsche mechanic.

Armed with this info, I was able to get a much more reasonable quote from my dealer. I paid just under $13K which included a new clutch, various fluids and sales tax. Fortunately, I had resisted the urging of my dealer to allow them to start tearing the car down for inspection. That would have made it expensive to pull the car out of the dealership.

You might be able to put together a similar competitive quote for your dealer by sourcing the new engine from someone on the east coast like Suncoast Porsche in Florida. I even found that the parts department at another local dealership happily offered me my standard 10% PCA parts discount on the engine. You can also hit your dealer with the cost of installing a used engine which should be about half the number they quoted you.

Bottom line - $17K is much too high. In these times, your dealership should be willing to make a more reasonable offer to keep your business.

Sorry to hear about your failure....

I second the Sunset -- I was quoted about the same price for a different failure mechanism.

We rebuilt it ourselves -- securing parts from Jeff at Sunset.

Heck you can order an X81 (is that the right number) for ~11K but you'd have to pay core

charges, -- but you could probably put one of those in for $17k and have close to 400Hp.

m

For the prices you're looking at, you could pick up the parts, a durametric, a complete set of tools to do the work, and a 6 pack of your favorite frosty beverage, and still have cash left over, if you're willing to give it a try. :)

I recommend the six pack before the repair -- that way your sober enough after the repair to jump right in

and start driving your beauty! (that an you won't notice the scrapes on the knuckles quite so much :-)

m

Add a poweramp which can bridge 2 high level inputs to a mono output. I used a kicker poweramp using my rear 2 apeaker lines as high level inputs. The mono output is connected to a low profile 6 inch kicker sub I bought from crutchfield.The rear factory speakers are still connected.Any decent after market stereo shop can easily do this. I made a custom enclosure between .2 and .3 cubic feet and placed behind rear seats, flush with the rear deck. It sound great. You really do not have to change out any other of the speakers. I would try that first before changing anything else out. I also added XM from Cayenne which others have done.

Do you have the kicker amp model number and where did you tap into the speaker wires for the high-level input? Also where did you end up placing your amp?, was this in addition to the non-bose amp? Any details would be great, since this is what I want to do to my 2005 997 C2, Thanks! -Paul

The non bose amp is left intact as it must power all speakers except the sub.The new amp can be mounted in the front trunk. You can tap into rear speakers in front trunk after speaker lines exit from the non bose poweramp. The facory rear speakers still function. They do not make my kicker amp anymore but there are many good choices. See crutchfield. I used a 6.5 inch shallow mount kicker sub I got from crutchfield for about 100 dollars. I suggest having a qualified installer doing the job, although this not that difficult.

Got Pix?

Just for frame of reference I found my used 3.2 from OK foreign on Ebay. With shipping it was just under $5000. The engine came very complete, but they do require a core. I think that you would spend well over $3000 on the overhaul along with the engine core you would be close to the cost of a used engine. Mine had 60K miles on it and so far, knock on wood, it has been great. I would love to get the flat 6 innovations upgrades 286hp to the wheels. :rolleyes:

If you are in/around Austin, Texas -- the mechanic that did my 3.2S would love the work and

is very reasonable in cost. I got to help him -- and it is quite a project and a lot of fun.

BTW, we've used one of LnEngineering's IMS' and she's purring like a kitten.

Not for the feignht of heart -- but a lot of fun to work on and she's running great!

We've got all the tools to work on the M96, would love to rebuild another one.

M

OK I admit I'm a n00b (though a lifelong admirer of Porsche), having just bought a used '99 Boxster. And I'm WAY out of my depth mechanically speaking (what can I say? I admire Porsche design and love driving). And I know that these things aren't a bargain to own. And I realize that 10-yr old cars have issues, even great ones. But I just got a repair estimate that took my breath away.

Here's a breakdown:

bad valves - $462

ONE O2 sensor - $371 (or FOUR for $1380)

O-rings on spark plug tubes - $686

front brake pads and rotors (incl. flushing brake fluids) - $790

serp belt (wasn't replaced at 60K as it should've been) - $251

H20 pump - $865

Including diagnostic service, cleaning the motor (because of the oil leak around the plugs) and cleaning the cowling around the top (where a bunch of debris had, unbeknownst to me, accumulated), I'm going to be out in the neighborhood of $3700. I have nobody to blame really because I thought if I inspected the previous (and only) owner's maintenance records, I could avoid having to take it to a mechanic for a more thorough review (and of course I was afraid a good deal would get away). So chalk one up for all those people that say, "ALWAYS GET THE CAR INSPECTED BEFORE YOU BUY IT."

I guess what I'm asking here is: Are these charges reasonable (or expected) for a indy mechanic specializing in high perf vehicles? Or should I look elsewhere for pro help? I shudder to think what would've happened if I'd gone to the dealer!

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may care to share. It may be time for yours truly to become more mechanically inclined.

Order your parts from Sunset and save a ton on the parts and then

see if you can find a good Indie -- I work with a mechanic here that would be able to do a complete engine rebuild (not counting parts) for way less than that!

If you were in Texas -- I would hook you guys up!

mike