deilenberger

On the other forum where this topic has been active (http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/cayenne-958/287782-2011-cayenne-transfer-case-replaced.html) there has been some discussion of getting a base virgin sample of oil tested by Blackstone Labs, then getting our samples of used oil tested to see what changed. Problem we have is I'm a bit cheapish - and don't feel like paying the $60 or so it would cost to buy a bottle of the original fill oil that Porsche used just to have the test done on it. That oil had a PN of 000-043-301-36. If anyone has any of that oil - unused - perhaps the remainder from doing a change and having some left over - I hope I could talk Blackstone into doing a free baseline run that we could compare our used samples to - and get some idea of what's going on. If that happens - I might also send along the bit of remaining oil from the new PN Porsche spec fluid (that ends in '63") so we can see what (if anything) changed between the two fluids. Anyone?

I'm going to try to gather a bit of info - both here and 6-speed-on-line. Please only report your failure in one forum, I'd rather avoid duplicates. To try to gather a little info here - that may or may not be useful, IF you've experienced a TC failure, please reply to this thread with the following info. After giving that info, any comments or summary of warranty/non-warranty, fix was replaced or just oil change is also welcome. Info needed (and please try to keep this order:) Year, Model, Mileage, Location, ForumUserName -------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it should be pretty obvious what's asked for.. and will be interested in what the responses are. If we get enough I'll start putting it together in a spreadsheet to see if there are any common factors. An example response would be: 2011, CTT, 72,300, New Jersey USA, deilenberger (Except mine didn't fail..) TIA!

Chris, I am too - and interested in any correlation between climate and failure mileage. You're in DFW, from memory - a rather warm part of the US - especially in summer. Your problem started at how many miles?

BTW - I believe we discussed the change in the transfer case vent. The shop foreman also pointed to a revised "slinger" they installed on the lower output (to the front end). Looking at the air deflector I can understand now why Porsche is doing this. IF you were fording water deep enough to reach the air deflector - it is going to throw water up at the front-end output shaft on the transfer case. That in turn is going to spin the water off - and enough will go up above the case that it could drip back into the top mounted air-vent. Porsches answer - reroute the vent and change the slinger on the shaft so it doesn't throw the water off. Unfortunately it did not appear possible to re-route this vent with the TC in the car, at least not without dropping it down (which would require disconnecting the two driveshafts going to the TC, and dropping the cross-member below the TC. Not practical. I don't see this as a huge concern. I saw no sign of water contamination in my drained oil. No one here has mentioned any water contamination in their oil. I don't think it's a huge issue if you don't regularly do off-roading and stream fording in your Cayenne. Driving across a rugged parking lot is not likely to cause oil contamination.

A strong recommendation to anyone with a Cayenne: Make a transfer-case (TC) oil change a regular maintenance item. I'd suggest every 30,000 miles, and checking the oil every oil change when the car is up on the lift. Doing a TC oil change on a lift will add about 10 minutes to the time spent changing the engine oil. Perhaps less. The TC drain and fill plugs are RIGHT THERE IN YOUR FACE - you actually could touch both of them with your nose if you were so inclined. Nothing in the way, lots of access, nothing has to be removed. I'll add a photo taken from underneath when I have a chance.. but there is no reason to not change the oil. We now have 4 people who were experiencing TC symptoms - told by Porsche they needed new TC's - who have changed their oil and no longer are experiencing ANY symptoms. We have one person who changed their TC oil and his symptoms were reduced but not eliminated - but - he didn't use a recommended oil, or even an oil that the oil manufacturer suggested for the use. He is going to change it again using one of the recommended oils. My own experience: My '11 Twin-Turbo didn't exhibit the symptoms other people had. The common symptom is a roughness in accelerating and some popping/clicking noises from under the car. Mine had a tiny bit of unevenness on acceleration - but not so much that I thought it abnormal. I have 72,300 miles on the CTT. I changed the oil today - putting in the new part# Porsche oil. It was available from SunsetPorscheParts.com - they had the best price (around $45 + shipping.) Local dealer wanted $75 for it. I did it on a lift since I have a friendly independent who was interested. It took longer to set the lift up to lift the Cayenne then it did to change the oil. What drained out was black. It had a slight burned odor to it, but not really strong. It didn't smell like gear oil, or the oil that was going in. It seemed rather thin. There was no sign of water contamination. I've saved a sample to send to Blackstone to analyze. As to what causes the oil breakdown - I suspect several items: One is heat. There is a small deflector right under the TC that is there to direct air up over the case and cool it. There has to be a reason for that deflector. I wonder if failures happen more often in warmer climates? The other may simply be use. The design is such that the clutch is ALWAYS partly engaged - and always slipping. That's how power is transferred from the rear to the front or rear to front. If someone drives in situations where they do a lot of turning - that will cause more slippage of the clutch as the ratio of front/rear torque changes. If someone has partly worn tires on one axle - that will cause continual slippage as the system adjusts the difference in rotation speed of the tires. ALL of these situations do two things - wear the clutch - and heat up the transfer case. Excessive heat is certainly indicated on TC's where people have reported a burned smell in the old oil. The new oil had the usual gear-oil sort of smell (sulphur) and was a light golden color. Took about 2 minutes to pump it full and button it up. This could EASILY be done on one with air-suspension by simply going to the highest suspension position and sliding under the vehicle on a piece of cardboard. The result surprised me. It felt different backing out of his parking lot. After about 2 miles it felt much different. The acceleration is absolutely smooth now. It sort of encourages me to put my foot in the pedal.. So - why is this? I believe the oil has broken down due to heat, and is contaminated with clutch wear particles. The clutch in the TC is a multiplate wet clutch. That means that the oil used IS important for smooth operation. Oil that is too thin and contaminated with wear particles will cause uneven clutch operation. It's my belief that the roughness in acceleration (and on turning) and the noise are symptoms of the clutch plates engaging erratically, sticking and then releasing. New oil seems to cure this - at least in the vehicles it's been tried in. Use an oil with the Porsche specification on the bottle..It can be found as cheaply as $12/liter. It only takes 0.85 liter. Car manufacturers like extended service intervals.. for a simple reason, it makes it easier to sell cars. People are afraid of high maintenance costs, (which would be very true if this was done by Porsche - the estimate to change the oil was over $200..) so the manufacturer extends the service intervals as far as they possibly can and have the car survive the original warranty period and any CPO period they might have to cover. At 100,000 miles - to the manufacturer - the car is basically dead to them. They have no continuing interest since they aren't going to make money off it. So - it's easy and inexpensive to do - and it has FIXED issues that Porsche dealers wanted $4,000 to fix. Just do it. Change your TC oil. And to check the oil at oil change intervals - remove the top fill plug and stick your finger in (or if it's full and warm some oil will run out) if the oil is DARK - replace it. YMMV - but bet not a whole lot.. Looking forward from under the car:

Might I suggest you use Ravenol (talked about above) or gasp.. the Porsche stuff (with the new PN - from Sunset Porsche web-order about $45 + $12 shipping.) People have had success using Ravenol - the Redline is IMHO - an unknown (even if they do recommend it - I have been disappointed in some of their other recommended oils - like the transmission lube they recommended for an E46/M3 BMW..)

pastorom (Name?) What oil did you refill it with? There may be some difference. Back in the old days of mechanical limited slip rear-drives - BMW ones with limited slip required either special lubricants, or an additive (GM made one for Corvettes that was widely used in other vehicles) - to prevent the stiction sort of noises/feeling you're describing in the limited slip clutch pack. The transfer case clutch pack is much the same as the limited slip ones were - a multiplate oil soaked clutch. I suspect some of the transfer-case oils may work better with the multiplate clutch in the Porsche transfer case than others. Hence my curiosity on what oil you used. And if you were facing TC replacement anyway - you would have nothing to loose by trying the GM additive package (most NAPA auto-parts stores keep it in stock.)

Thanks MUCH for the followup. I imagine some debris was still trapped in the clutch assembly. It may take yet another oil change to fully flush it out. I'd wait a few thousand miles for that one.

Answered in the thread you created on RennList. http://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-cayenne-forum/981828-used-cayenne-purchase.html#post14059746

That's twice he's been told. Hopefully.. he's paying attention (it's a real PITA to find you're not able to remove the fill plug after draining the TC.. but - you only make that mistake once.) BTW - Steph - when you're done - please post your results here. I'd like to keep a running total on success with this.

steph - you may want to read: Read the entire thread actually. It is - as they say "a piece of cake" to do the job (especially if you have a lift) - both fill and drain are on the backside of the transfer case. You do want some sealant to put on the plugs before refilling them. You do want to remove the fill first (I hope I don't have to explain why..) And you do want to use a torque wrench (small 3/8" one or even 1/4" one - 12ft/lbs isn't much torque at all) to tighten them up. #1 is fill, #2 is drain.

Very nice Chris. Please keep us informed on how well it holds up, and I'll be quite interested to hear what Blackstone has to say..

Cool. I see by your sig that you're well qualified to make a determination. Smell? Other people have noted a burned clutch smell to the oil when it's that dark. It's a bit debatable what color it started out as. I've seen things suggesting the factory fill started out as blue, but all replacement fluids are red. Dunno if that's true or not. Should know in about a week when I get mine changed out. My guess is what we're seeing is burned clutch material suspended in the fluid. I'll be very interested in how yours drives now. Being a stick shift we can immediately take slippage of the automatic transmission out of the equation, which is good.

Chris - no real tricks. It's as straightforward as it sounds. What year is your wife's Cayenne? Just curious. And be very interested in hearing what the result of the fluid change is.. funny thing. When I was at the dealer, looking at a dead transfer-case sitting on the shop floor, I asked about the fluid change. Shop foreman said "Lifetime fluid - never changed" - I just pointed to the dead one on the floor - and said "Lifetime up?" I think he got it. But they never mentioned ever trying a fluid change before replacing the case. I'm guessing the Porsche protocol is "case misbehaving - replace".. rather than fix. Just hoping that in at least some cases - changing the fluid may help the problem. Save a bit of the old fluid coming out - I'd love to see what it looks like from a case experiencing the problem. BTW - was chatting with my mechanic friend who is pretty hooked into the Ferrari world. He said their dual-clutch transmissions are lasting 5-15,000 miles, and then start exhibiting similar grabby clutch action. Ferrari replaces them - but some enthusiasts have tried RAVENOL dual-clutch-transmission fluid, and reported that within 30 miles or so - the bad behavior starts clearing up. Probably not in all cases - if the clutches really got hammered - but at least in some cases - saves a many thousands of $$ repair. BTW - Ravenol Transfer Case synthetic, meeting Porsche spec: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00QCVP6UK/ref=ox_sc_act_title_

There is certainly no rush on it - I'm just curious if there is ANY documentation on what the values mean, and where they come from. I had assumed the V40 measurement was done as a resistance measurement through the oil - more metal in the oil = more wear, but now I'm not so sure. Since they do give a max value as an indication the oil should be changed - it doesn't seem like it would be just a calculated value - that could be made mileage dependent fairly easily. But - the fact that they have you reset it to 0 after changing the oil - almost makes me think it's calculating the torque (a measurement of force) that has gone through the transfer case. Mystery. That is the only mention of that value in the service manual, and none of the other values are ever mentioned.

Can you perhaps share what those values are?

The Head - are you doing the 2nd oil change with the same oil? I know on another forum you mentioned you've been driving it all week - hard - and have not experienced any of the symptoms it formerly exhibited. And I seem to recall you used the Mutol listed as compatible by Pelican?

It reads them - but no real explanation of what they mean or what's acceptable. Here is a text version of the data it reports: =====2017-02-11 16:28:39===== V10_Transmission wear integrator- mileage since last oil service 71377.73 mile V20_Transmission wear integrator- chain 277653360 j V30_Transmission wear integrator- clutch 1113942712 j V40_Transmission wear integrator- oil 78 kwh V50_Transmission wear integrator- roll-over counter 110988 V60_Disc wear integrator- disc work 0.2- 2.0 kw 56611416 j V70_Disc wear integrator- disc work < 0.2kW 171189563 j V80_Disc wear integrator - disc work > 2 kW 2086066 j Any idea what the numbers mean? I assume all the measurements are in units of power (kWh, and Joules) - but don't quite understand why that's so.. by the spec's from the manual - my V40 oil wear integrator number is fine.

I believe the PN is the same as the older plugs - starts with 955.. but - in looking at photos of it on Pelican's website, it looks like a simple threaded plug with some sealant on the threads. I would guess some Teflon tape pipe sealant will work just fine, and since the plugs are around $20/each - I believe I'll be reusing mine.

You were experiencing symptoms? I'd love to have gotten a wear indicator reading on your old oil. I can read this with the iCarScan, and the factory service manual gives a maximum value. This is what the manual says: WM 0335IN DIAGNOSTIC MAINTENANCE: RESETTING DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM AND SERVICE INTERVAL (CAYENNE, CAYENNE S, CAYENNE S E-HYBRID, CAYENNE TURBO, CAYENNE (3.0), CAYENNE GTS & CAYENNE TURBO S) > RESETTING SERVICE INTERVAL > READING OUT TRANSFER GEAR WEAR INTEGRATOR The transmission wear integrator oil must be checked during every intermediate maintenance/maintenance. 1. Start PIWIS Tester II 9818 and follow the instructions on the Tester. 2. Select the vehicle type and start the PIDT. 3. Select the All-wheel menu. 4. Select the Actual values, input signals menu. 5. Select the T_wear integrators menu. Press [F12] to continue. 6. Read out the value for V40 transmission wear integrator - oil . If this value is greater than 145 kWh , the oil in the transfer gear must be changed → Changing oil for transfer gear. If the value is lower, no further action is required. 7. If the oil in the transfer gear has been changed, the value must be deleted and reset to zero by pressing [F8] FWIW - I have no idea why this measurement is in kiloWatt hours (kWh) - http://www.energylens.com/articles/kw-and-kwh since that's a measurement of energy

The BMW stuff is identical to the Porsche original spec oil. And it seems much more readily available (but not any cheaper.)

I'm thinking of taking a sample when I change mine and have Blackstone look at it. I'll have to contact them and see if they have any virgin samples to compare it to..

One of these makes short work of getting every drop to where it belongs: http://a.co/10ERX9J

Rated capacity is 0.85L. It pretty much sits mostly in the bottom of the chain case part until it starts moving then the chain drags some up to the top where it splashes around and lubricates the planetary gear and the clutch assembly. I've found the Porsche capacity listings are pretty accurate (my engine takes exactly 10 quarts of oil- which is 9.5L (9.46353, but who's counting..)