ciaka

Car is up running 100% and enjoyed 5x more.

When I have some time I will do a write up with pics and DIY info too.

You dont need to put servos into service position.  When you buy them, theyre in position ready to install, but you have to make sure each servo is attached to the arm properly, as you install.  

I noticed that my CTT HID light on passenger side, does not auto level when i start the car. Noticed because I started seeing the light try to reset (blink momentarily), while driving. Then replaced bulbs, and blinking still persisted.
Then noticed when I start the car, that same HID bulb on passenger side does not do the auto level when car started and lights turned on. I am certain the blinking connected to the auto level not working. Trying to figure out the cause.
If you have advice, appreciate the help. Thank you.

To complete this thread, I replaced the front final drive fluid with perfect results in an alternative way.  Check out the DIY section for info on how its done, here.

I have got to know the suspension pretty well.  Long story short, will likely have a nice write up. 

Easy once you know the parts and their operation and expected behavior, etc.

One of my new shocks happened to be DEFECTIVE.  So waiting for 2nd replacement to shove into the front pass side.

Everything else seems to be working, car raising, compressor working, no leaks observed, BUT front pass side slowly drops.  Since no leaks in lines, internal fault strongly suspected.  

Once it is all re swapped, I can update.  Been fun though.  Great thanks to my CTT for having another Pcar to use while toying with the PTT.

From what I know, you can get the update for maps, BUT, cannot get them activated without PIWIS2. 

Has to be PIWIS2, previous version does not support the car.

So it means no way to get maps without paying the shop.  

Last time I looked, update will run about 300-400 for the process and visit.

If anyone knows process manually step by step, let us know.

IMO you should just remove the bumper (easy on Panamera), and do the job properly.

You can see the bumper removal in my DIY posts, it is a part of the air filter change DIY.  

Then you reposition the sensor, and put it all back together.  Will also give you a chance to do a bunch of cleaning in the area too.

Here:

- Headlight removal

- Front bumper removal

Then, you repair the sensor and will know it was properly positioned.

Update:
Tried to raise car, remove line, to see if shock expands.  No.  Shock not expanding.

Noticed when disconnected line from shock there was no compressed air in it.  That was after compressor ran couple times already (and ran a couple times previous day too).

So thinking is, either the block or compressor not working right.  There is nothing else that can go wrong here.  ECU working since does give me warnings chassis failure, if I raise on jacks, I can press button to raise suspension to high, even though I do it on jacks to simulate, so ECU does work.  Mechanical connection to upper arm was re checked.  Seemed just fine, cleaned contacts just in case.

Reseated     top of shock connections too.

My next move - replace valve block and/or compressor rod/seals with rebuild kit.  My logic is, even though compressor working, may not be generating pressure (although thinking why the back would raise then).
Compressor seemed to sound differently too over last week or so (along with the typical pumping noise, noticed a deeper sound associated with it). 
I assume my newly installed shock is fine (no reason to doubt it at this time).  Re checked all connections, disconnected shock from air line, after compressor ran for a while, and noticed there was very little pressure in the line (almost no hiss of air at all).  So if no pressure in line, either valve block not opening, or compressor not generating.

Let me know what you think abou this.

UPDATE: 

I was able to verify my air suspension compressor does work and is functional.  
I managed to slip 2 low profile jacks under car and raise the front to level I measured before starting work. 
Then connected durametric.  Cleared faults. 
Then was able to notice that suspension was disabled again (must have happened after suspension fault error was flagged).  Pressed button for 10 s to enable suspension once again.
Then noticed compressor start pumping again.  Both front and rear shocks were raised.  
I stopped and started car 3 or 4 times, to see if compressor pumps up the shock on its own over time.
The rear seemed to have been adjusted properly.  Front driver appeared to be slightly lower.  Front passenger (where new shock is), does not hold height.  
After having compressor run few times, I lowered the jacks to see how the car would sit.  Driver frt was lower but up a bit, pass frt kept going all the way down.
So the new shock is not getting pumped.  It is possible that the system does not have enough pressure to pump up the frt pass. shock.

Spoke to shock person, who states calibration is needed especially in Panamera.  I was hoping to go without the calibration, as this will require me to get towing to my house, get the car over 40 miles to shop.  Still trying to find solutions for pumping.  If you have any suggestions, keep em coming.  I will be trying again today. 

One thing I may try just thinking about it now (please stop me if you dont think good idea):
Maybe what I should do is disconnect the air line, raise car up as high as can to extend the shock and put air volume into it.

Then connect line back and lower the car.  Some of the air volume will be part of the gas volume, and could at least allow drivability.  What do you think?

Yes, I did turn off suspension  before the work, and managed to turn it back on after work (pressing button for 10 s).  Saw the message suspension turned on.

Tried to raise car, but did not.  

The shock tech keeps saying sensors need calibration first. I will go look at the sensors again to see if they are the culprit.  One is for control of air volume into shock (on off center on top of shock).  Not sure what the other one is (top center where the damper nut is).

After frustrating night, edit to post:

Decided to swap out front passenger air shock, because noticed that when I sprayed soapy water onto top of shock, it would bubble from under the shock damper nut (middle nut topside of shock). This would sag my front when left overnight or for several hours parked.
Wanted to swap out so the compressor does not get burned out overworking to pump shocks every morning and afternoon.
Before doing the work, compressor would eventually pump gas into front shocks, and it would eventually go up, even though took time to get this to occur. Probably up to 5 minutes before I got to be able to raise car to high setting, but would work fine.

Shock arrived. Swap out was fairly straight forward. Also swapped out upper control arm while I was at it (yes, the shock must come out to do this - because of the way the side arm bolts are located, nut on outside of arm, bolt on inside facing shock wall).
Connected the 4 wires at top of shock (I dont think there is a way to connect these wires wong - even though two are 2 wire connections, and then the air line, and another sensor). Maybe one of you knows better.
Anyways, everything put together, car was still on car jacks, preset to height normal to when driving. 
I turned the car on, and eventually heard compressor turn on but for a short time. Assumed it is because car is on jacks still and does not detect the low height.
Turned car off, lowered the car off the jacks. Got back in. Started. Within about 1 min heard the compressor kick in. Saw car raise a little while sitting inside.
Opened the door few times to try to set more compressor work. It was hard to hear the compressor with the car running.
Eventually I saw the car raise a couple more times, but the height of the car did not go to what I expected it to.
Gently backed out of driveway, very slowly drove straight line and back into garage. This did not raise the car at all.
At that time, the car was not raising anymore. All the way down on front both sides.


Since compressor was working before the swap, my thinking is it would be too coincidental to have compressor go out.
Same with valve block. Way too far to be affected.
The only things I can think of are:
- relay replacement
- compressor refresh to do
- sensors on shock not working right or not connecting right



Had suspension failure red icon on display. Cleared with Durametric, but appears to come back.
Errors are in PASM area:
789 / 315


Also just spoke to the shock folks and they say the sensors need to be calibrated. Guess it is a possibility, but wonder how likely. 
Would have to tow car to a shop. Really irritating.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Looks like the Porsche system is temp compensated too.  I calculated pressures at 68F, then at 95, and it appears that the calibration on TPMS takes account ambient temp, which is good.

In addition, Porsche has stated their pressusre measurements are very, very accurate and would trust them over any gauge.  

So what I think I will do, is run at the settings or F38psi/R44psi, and trust the technology more.

My turbo has different size tires.

Front:  255/40 20"

Rear 295/35 20"

Car is set for partial pressure, standard, faster than 100mph, summer tires.

What you you folks set these tire pressure at?

The sticker at side of the door frame driver side, states partial pressure should be 44psi in both front and rear.

The multi function display shows that for cold tires to be filled right (per above settings), fronts have to be inflated to 44psi, rears inflated to 38psi.

This way fill info shows 0mpsi needed  in tires.

Max tire pressure is 49psi, so I am starting to think 44psi may be high.

Also, is there a way to reset the display to show full pressure at differently set levels from the 38/44 psi?

Wanted to hear advice on how to set thgem right.

Does anyone have info on what the torque should be for the front passenger air shock main nut (one top of the shock, not the air line but the one that large air line plugs into - its 21mm).
Showing pic for reference. I cannot seem to find it in the FSM.
I was doing some stuff on car, took a 21mm wrench and was able to turn it quite easily (saw bubbles come out when sprayed soap water). Trying to see if it needs tightening, but dont want to over tighten. When I attempted initially, started turnn clock wise and more bubbles started coming out. Need the torque to make sure its on properly, before I run out get another shock.


Thanks.

Great work JFP.  Awesome to have such fellow forum members, who can take the time and help clear up important details.

Just to sum up, for sake of having all info in single post, the below details are for PDK on Porsche Panamera models 970, MY2010-2013:

• PDK made by ZF - a unique version of the PDK just for Panamera
  • Uses dual clutch, wet design, uses one fluid compartment for gearbox and clutches, and another fluid compartment for front final drive
  • Gearbox & clutches - fluid used is Pentosin FFL3 - about 9 quarts
  • Front final drive - fluid used is Shell TF0951 - change quantity 0.425 liter (a bit less than half a quart)
    • I was able to cross reference this to Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic gear oil 75-W90
  • Service manual does not state change interval, although service book in car shows every 60k miles (I will do every 60k).

At least the 970 generation of Panamera MY2010-2013, PDK that comes with it has two separate fluid compartments, one for transmission (FFL3), and another for the front final drive (Shell TF0951).  Service manual still calls for PIWIS, but my guess is they used parts of other PDK manual, and having temp at 40C would not hurt the change anyway.

When I was searching details on front final drive, I cross referenced the Shell TF0951 oil, to Mobil Delvac 1 75-W90 synthetic.  

To wrap up, to complete this model Panamera PDK service, you would need:

• FFL3 (about 9 quarts) - while level, drain via drain plug, pour in via inspection plug, run through gears at 40C (may not be required), make sure fluid topped up to fill hole.
• Shell TF0951 or Mobil Delvac 1 gear oil, synthetic 75W-90 (0.42 liter change qty) - while level, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until fluid leaks out fill plug hole.

If you have 4 wheel drive, you need to also do rear differential fluid:

• GL-5 rated gear oil 75W-90 - I used Mobil Delvac 1 75W-90 gear oil - change qty  ~1.15 liter - while level, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until fluid comes out fill hole.

Per maintenance schedules in manuals, I see (for USA market only):

• PDK transmission fluid change (FFL3) - service manual does not call for at all
  • I will do change every 60k miles (fluid only), and fluid + pan/filter change every 120k miles
    • Doing so because of info I gathered from other sites/forums, where PDK was analyzed vs used oil, not necessary to replace pan/filter after 60k miles
• Front final drive fluid change (Shell TF0951) - service manual calls for change at 120k miles
  • I will do every 60k miles
• Rear differential fluid change (GL-5 gear oil) - service manual calls for change at 120k miles
  • I will do every 60k miles
• For non USA markets, I would follow the 60k mile/100,000km schedule as service manual calls for similar intervals in non USA markets

Thank you JFP for your contribution to the information.  I am sure many will find it invaluable in their quest to keep their Panameras running trouble free.

Good to know.  I was starting to doubt the FSM I have.  No need now.

As to the fluid levels, good to know the  above is from 911.  Yes, Panamera quantities are different (above table shows qty for V8 Panameras).

That seems to be a huge difference in gear oil qty between the 911 (showing above at 3.1 quarts), and Panamera V8 flavors gear oil qty at 0.425 L change.

Thought these would be similar if they have very similar PDK.

Are these FSM info and values?  Could it be these are for Panamera (V6), which I believe did not come with PDK?  Other models had PDK standard from what I recall.

The FSM I use states different info for Porsche Panamera 970 - MY 2010-2013.

It could be your numbers are for different model of Porsche as I do not see these details anywhere in my FSM.

I see ATF fluid change details and front final drive fluid change details (two separate fluids, both having their own inspect/fill plug, and drain plug).

ATF fluid is FFL3, front final drive fluid is Shell TF0951 (cross referenced it to Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic gear oil 75-W90).

ATF inspect/fill plug is between exhaust pipes (facing towards the rear).  ATF drain plug is at bottom of the pan (black colored, ridged synthetic rectangular structure middle of the car, facing down).

Front final drive fill/inspection plug is on passenger side, facing passenger front wheel, behind the wheel well lining.

Front final drive drain plug is in same area as fill plug, but a little lower and a hex bolt (right next to the front axle shaft to passenger wheel).

General process for change appears similar.  With ATF process showing PDK temp of 40 deg C (up to 45 deg C - +5 deg. variance).  

The quantity to use is until it drips out of the fill/inspection hole when at temp, and after working through all gears few times slowly.

General process for front differential oil change is level car, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until oil drips out, then close.

The technical info for V8 engines PDK ATF, front final drive, rear diff, are:

Could it be your values are for different displacement/model of Panamera?

Looked up details and thank you for correction. 

Looking at the schedules, final drive oil change 12 years or 120k miles for B country market (USA).

ATF oil no changes expected for B market.

When I spoke to shop about ATF, was learning that they're ok doing atf oil change at 60k, then atf oil change with pan/filter change at 120k.

They would do front final drive oil change at 60k.  So maybe thats the twice service rate of final drive per each full (with filter and pan) change of atf.

What do you say about not changing ATF oil?  I guess that is similar to the Cayenne 'no need to change atf', but all doing the change anyways, since it wont hurt the car.

I thought I would collect this for ease of use by forum members.

Hope it helps with questions like 'when should I do this', or what kind of maintenance at xxxx miles. 

All of the below pertains only to B markets.

Porsche organizes countries it sells its cars to, into markets, classified as A, B, or C.

USA falls into the B market category, and since I reside there, below info will be only for B markets.

If you live in other market, I am sure you can approximate durations, etc, but from what I see, there is language stating countries with leaded fuel do their maintenance on intervals that are shorter than in B markets. So please go check your market or take the info as an approximation only.

Also, I have Panamera Turbo, so these intervals are for this model. Most models follow same if not very similar schedule though.



B market countries:
Armenia, Australia, Bahrain, Brunei, Bulgaria, Estonia, French Polynesia, GhanaIndonesia, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Canada, Kazakhstan, Qatar, KuwaitLatvia, Lebanon, Lithuania, Malaysia, Moldova, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Oman, Philippines, Reunion, Romania, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, South Korea, SyriaTaiwan, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, USA, UAE (Abu Dhabi, Dubai), Vietnam, Belarus, Cyprus.




PANAMERA 970:

OIL CHANGE SERVICE:

• Oil & Filter Change - Every 15,000 km or 10,000 miles, or 1 year - ~9 quarts (Panamera V8)
  • Whichever comes first - 1 year, or distance
• Oil & Filter Change - Every 10,000 km or 6,000 miles, in countries with leaded fuel

INTERMEDIATE MAINTENANCE:

• Every 30,000 km or 20,000 miles
  • If mileage for intermediate maintenance not reached, it must be done after 2, 6, 10, etc years (starting year 2, every 4 years)
  • Change engine oil & filter - following oil & filter change schedule
  • Windscreen wiper/washer system, headlight cleaning system: check operation and nozzle.
  • Tires and spare wheel: check tire pressure
  • Diagnostic system: read out fault memory; reset maintenance interval
  • Read out out soot mass in particle filter (Diesel version only)
  • Particle filter: replace filter element
  • Check wiper blades
  • All headlights: check adjustment
  • Battery vent hose: check condition
  • Replace fuel filter (Diesel version only)
  • Tires and spare wheel: check condition
  • Brake lines: visual inspection for damage, routing and corrosion
  • Brake hoses: visual inspection for damage and routing
  • Brake system: visual inspection of brake pads, brake discs for wear (not removing wheels)
  • Drive shafts: visual inspection of the boots for leaks and damage
  • Radiators and air intakes: visual inspection for external contamination and blockage
  • Coolant: check level and antifreeze
  • Windscreen wiper/washer system: check fluid level; check window cleaner and antifreeze, depending on the season
  • PDCC and power steering: check fluid level
  • Test Drive & check function:
    • Remote control
    • Front seats
    • Electric parking
    • Foot brakes (also actuation travel)
    • Engine
    • Steering
    • Transmission
    • ParkAssist
    • Cruise control
    • PSM switch
    • Heating
    • Air conditioning
    • Instruments
  • Any other oils, fluids: visual inspection for leaks

REGULAR MAINTENANCE:

• Every 60,000 km or 40,000 miles
  • If mileage for regular maintenance not reached, it must be done after 4, 8, 12, etc years (every 4 years)
  • Change engine oil & filter - following oil & filter change schedule
  • Windscreen wiper/washer system, headlight cleaning system - check operation and nozzle settings
  • Horn: check operation
  • Tires and spare wheel: check tire pressure
  • Diagnostic system: read out fault memory; reset regular maintenance interval
  • Seat belts: check operation and condition
  • Particle filter: replace filter element
  • Check wiper blades
  • All headlights: check adjustment
  • Trailer hitch: check function
  • Battery vent hose: check condition
  • Tires and spare wheel: check condition
  • Brake system: visual inspection of brake pads and brake discs for wear
  • Brake hoses: visual inspection for damage and routing
  • Radiators and air intakes: visual inspection for external contamination and blockage
  • Underbody panels: visual inspection for completeness, secure installation and damage
  • Replace fuel filter (diesel version only)
  • All other fluids visual inspection for leaks
  • Brake lines: visual inspection for damage, routing and corrosion
  • Steering gear: visual inspection of bellows for damage
  • Tie rod joints: check the play and dust boots
  • Drive shafts: visual inspection of the boots for leaks and damage
  • Axle joints: check the play and visually inspect the dust boots for damage
  • Exhaust system: visual inspection for leaks and damage, check engine mount
  • Fuel lines and connections: visual inspection (in visible area)
  • Coolant: check level and antifreeze
  • Windscreen wiper/washer system: check fluid level; check window cleaner and antifreeze, depending on the season
  • PDCC and power steering: check fluid level
  • Test drive & check function:
    • Remote control
    • Front seats
    • Electric parking
    • Foot brakes (also actuation travel)
    • Engine
    • Steering
    • Transmission
    • ParkAssist
    • Cruise control
    • PSM switch
    • Heating
    • Air conditioning
    • Instruments
  • Other oils, fluids: visual inspection for leaks

ADDITIONAL MAINTENANCE EVERY 2 YEARS:

• Change engine oil & filter - following oil & filter change schedule
• Change brake fluid (use only original Porsche brake fluid)
• Tire sealing compound: check use-by date and replace if necessary
• File Condition Report for long-life guarantee

ADDITIONAL MAINTENANCE EVERY 4 YEARS:

• Change engine oil & filter - following oil & filter change schedule
• Replace tire sealing compound

ADDITIONAL MAINTENANCE FOR SPARK PLUGS:

• V6 - Replace every 60,000 km or 40,000 miles or every 4 years
• V8 S - Replace every 45,000km or 30,000mi or every 4 years
• GTS - Replace every 60,000km or 40,000mi or every 4 years
• Turbo - Replace every 45,000km or 30,000mi or every 4 years
• V8 S E-Hybrid - Replace every 60,000km or 40,000mi or every 4 years

ADDITIONAL MAINTENANCE EVERY 120,000km or 80,000 miles:

• Do every 120,000km or 80,000 miles or every 6 years
• For markets A & B
• Change oil & filter following oil & filter change schedule maintenance
• Air cleaner: replace filter element

ADDITIONAL MAINTENANCE EVERY 180,000km or 120,000 miles:

• For markets A & B
• Do every 180,000km or 120,000 miles or every 12 years
• Change engine oil & filter - following oil & filter change schedule
• All-wheel final drive: change oil
• Rear final drive: change oil

Other noteworthy remarks from reviewing the maintenance schedule:
- PDCC reservoir change replacement recommended only for C markets (non USA), at 90k km or 54k miles, then again at 240k km or 144k miles or after 16 years
- PDK transmission oil change mentioned only for B markets (Panamera S E-hybrid, Panamera S hybrid only), at 90k km or 54k miles, then again at 240k km or 144k miles or after 16 years.



I will be checking the maintenance schedule book inside the car to compare. If there are differences, I can chime in. 
This is really surprising. There are many places where PDK, PDCC reservoir is called for after 60k. I do not see that in the FSM.
Some food for thought.

I just thoroughly reviewed maintenance schedule for Panamera.  

It appears that PDCC reservoir change is called for in C market countries (not USA).

USA is in B market designation, and for this market, PDCC reservoir change is not called for.

Bringing that up just food for thought.  I will try to post up maintenance schedule summary for B market, so others can have more details on what to maintain.

Thanks.

Panamera PDK has Pentosin FFL3 hydraulic fluid for transmission, as well as well as another fluid for the front final drive, the Shell TF0951.

Those are separate fluids all together.

The transmission/hydraulic fluid is for the clutches. 

The front final drive fluid is for the front gearing. 

No other fluids are required for the PDK.

4 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

What about the clutch fluid?  It is supposed to be changed twice for every time the gear box is changed once.

I agree with your thoughts.  Looks like this was the first change.  Glad I did it.  

Now, only thing left is front final drive and I'm set for many miles.

Do you maybe know if the front axle carrier (a metal cross brace plate) has to be removed to do the change of diff oil?

Is the plate holding anything in place, or just there as protection for components?  Mean in ng, nothing will crash on my head when I'm down th here removing the brace, to get to the diff drain plug?