CONVERTIBLE WOES! new config, goes DWN but not UP

[pk2]

Hello all,

Synopsis: Newly synchronized transmissions after 2 years disassembled & non operational. Tried to sync today. Top goes down but not up, problem apprears to be electrical, motor will not reverse with all the tie-rods etc. disconected (99', 5 spd, 2.5L) Originally I had issues with re-synchronizing my transmissions (type "A"). Synchronized them individually by aligning "V" arms to notches on the trans. Case. Whille not working quite corectly, the solution is at hand (i sycncronized the "V" arms beatifully...180 degrees off.)

Now the big pain, the top will open but won't close. With tie rods and the like disconnected from the transmission, the motor will only turn in one direction (open). Pushing the closed button does nothing.

1) took out the big relay, opened it up, little circuit board inside (surprise), cleaned of a little surface corrosion, cleaned contacts on plug, Gave it some fairly hearty taps, and drove it in and out of its socket several times.

2) Did the same with plugs on the up/down (or close/open) switch. Also swapped in 2 other switches, & jumped the plug, still no go.

3) Fiddled with the switch positions of the b-pillar micro switch and the switch, nothing.

4) WERDNESS: pushing the "close/up" button while holding the switch over the drive motor down makes the drive motor run in the wrong direction (like when opening the top) but it does run????

5) Probably irrelevant but an apparent, remote control button for top on my key does nothing. ( Other button works with locks though)

6) NOTE OF HOPE AND CONFUSION: I found by tapping the up/close button the drive motor would turn in the wrong direction in little fits and spurts. It also on rare ocasions runs for 4 seconds or so

7)I can hear a "click" definitely from the relay when swithch is pushed either "open or " close".

8) More weirdnes: Stabing arond blindly at the 4 wires that lead to the motor, I found a pair the lit up 12v. on my v. meter by pushing the open but ...and... the close button ! (later discovered these are the only 2 leads of 4 that go to the motor. the other 2 go to the micro switch above it)

9)Nrew wrinkle today: removed drive motor and jumped it runs great on 12v., swithch polarity runs to reverse it. did, as I'd expect. But hecked voktage off the plug for motor. +12v with the switch in either up or down positions, no -12 reading????

So, an obvious solution for the "gear run-out" is rotate the gear to "v" arm 180 and realign it to the cover notches (the later orientation). May also install and adjust top tie-rods with the top in more of a complete "closed/up" position. Are "v" arms supposed to be perfectly flat? or is a littl bent in them O.K

As to the up/close situation, weird circuit board relay sounds like a candidate, but I bet Porsche doesn't give them away, a pricey experiment. It also makes the right noise and I have nocked the thing around a bit (works for som here). If there's a work around I'd love to hear about it. If eliminating added complexity due to handbrake and speed overrides helps, I'm ready to say ba-bye to them .

I have factory wiring diagrams, but there a bit confusing. Write now I could mickey mouse the thing to work, but not with the sophistication it's supose to have. I also found a PDF here describing how to test the micro switches through the top relay socket. Does anyone know where I can measure other voltagess I can check to Isolate the problem?

Other tips, clues, insight greatly apreciated!!

thanks, P.K.

P.S.This the continuation/ branch of a thread started between "mark in sunnyvale" a "1schoir" (http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15249&st=0&p=75978entry75978 ).if you want backround .

Edited September 10, 2007 by pk2

[1schoir]

Hello all,

Synopsis: Newly synchronized transmissions after 2 years disassembled & non operational. Tried to sync today. Top goes down but not up, problem apprears to be electrical, motor will not reverse with all the tie-rods etc. disconected (99', 5 spd, 2.5L) Originally I had issues with re-synchronizing my transmissions (type "A"). Synchronized them individually by aligning "V" arms to notches on the trans. Case. Whille not working quite corectly, the solution is at hand (i sycncronized the "V" arms beatifully...180 degrees off.)

Now the big pain, the top will open but won't close. With tie rods and the like disconnected from the transmission, the motor will only turn in one direction (open). Pushing the closed button does nothing.

1) took out the big relay, opened it up, little circuit board inside (surprise), cleaned of a little surface corrosion, cleaned contacts on plug, Gave it some fairly hearty taps, and drove it in and out of its socket several times.

2) Did the same with plugs on the up/down (or close/open) switch. Also swapped in 2 other switches, & jumped the plug, still no go.

3) Fiddled with the switch positions of the b-pillar micro switch and the switch, nothing.

4) WERDNESS: pushing the "close/up" button while holding the switch over the drive motor down makes the drive motor run in the wrong direction (like when opening the top) but it does run????

5) Probably irrelevant but an apparent, remote control button for top on my key does nothing. ( Other button works with locks though)

6) NOTE OF HOPE AND CONFUSION: I found by tapping the up/close button the drive motor would turn in the wrong direction in little fits and spurts. It also on rare ocasions runs for 4 seconds or so

7)I can hear a "click" definitely from the relay when swithch is pushed either "open or " close".

8) More weirdnes: Stabing arond blindly at the 4 wires that lead to the motor, I found a pair the lit up 12v. on my v. meter by pushing the open but ...and... the close button ! (later discovered these are the only 2 leads of 4 that go to the motor. the other 2 go to the micro switch above it)

9)Nrew wrinkle today: removed drive motor and jumped it runs great on 12v., swithch polarity runs to reverse it. did, as I'd expect. But hecked voktage off the plug for motor. +12v with the switch in either up or down positions, no -12 reading????

So, an obvious solution for the "gear run-out" is rotate the gear to "v" arm 180 and realign it to the cover notches (the later orientation). May also install and adjust top tie-rods with the top in more of a complete "closed/up" position. Are "v" arms supposed to be perfectly flat? or is a littl bent in them O.K

As to the up/close situation, weird circuit board relay sounds like a candidate, but I bet Porsche doesn't give them away, a pricey experiment. It also makes the right noise and I have nocked the thing around a bit (works for som here). If there's a work around I'd love to hear about it. If eliminating added complexity due to handbrake and speed overrides helps, I'm ready to say ba-bye to them .

I have factory wiring diagrams, but there a bit confusing. Write now I could mickey mouse the thing to work, but not with the sophistication it's supose to have. I also found a PDF here describing how to test the micro switches through the top relay socket. Does anyone know where I can measure other voltagess I can check to Isolate the problem?

Other tips, clues, insight greatly apreciated!!

thanks, P.K.

P.S.This the continuation/ branch of a thread started between "mark in sunnyvale" a "1schoir" (http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15249&st=0&p=75978entry75978 ).if you want backround .

Peter:

The top only opening and not closing (together with the dash button only spinning the motor in one direction) sounds like a problem with either the B-Pillar microswitch or the Main Relay, or a combination of the two.

Once you have the top in the open position, try this to reverse the direction that the motor spins and the related direction of travel of the V-Levers: Pull off the carpeted plastic panel that covers the seat belt spoon and the B-Pillar microswitch. Then, using either a small hook tool or a small piece of wire that you can wrap around the back of the small metal lever of the microswitch, pull and hold the small metal lever forward (so that it trips the microswitch [you should be able to hear the mair relay click in the driver's side footwell]) and then press the open/close button on the dash. That should reverse the direction of travel of the motor. Keep an eye on the V-lever on the driver's side and note its direction of rotation while the top is traveling down to the open position. When you pull the small metal lever forward and hold it, the V-lever should start to spin in the opposite direction. Believe it or not, you can operate your top that way to its complete open or closed position so that you can function on a temporary basis.

Let us know what results you get with that.

As far as the cost of the convertible top relay goes, it's about $75 from Sunset. The B-pillar microswitch is about $50. (both plus shipping). Let me know if you need part numbers.

As I mentioned in another post, the V-levers are supposed to be completely straight and true. A bend could impact the white plastic cups popping off.

As far as testing the motor wiring, what you described sounds like a properly working motor. With the main relay installed on its receptacles, open the clamshell and pull off the electrical plug that is plugged in to the side of the motor.

Connect the positive lead of your voltmeter ot the black wire and the negative lead to the green wire. Then connect a jumper wire between terminals 2 and 3 at the plug connection. Switch on the ignition and press the "open" button. You should get a reading of about 12 volts (battery voltage).

Now reverse the connections to the green and black wires, with everything else the same. Switch on the ignition and press the "close" button. You should get a reading of about 12 volts again.

You may recognize these two steps as the end of the PDF document you mentioned, and I was able to successfully perform those two tests a while ago on my top.

As to the rest of the tests described in that PDF document, I did not understand the basic concept of how to perform those tests, so perhaps you can educate me on that.

Lastly, as to the initial position of the V-Levers, I mentioned in an earlier post on the predecessor thread, that if you "draw in" extending lines to the marking notches, you will see the correct position of the "V" as it will not then cross "over" the lines formed thereby.

Hope this helps, although I know you also will have to resolve the issue of the orientation of the transmissions in your other thread.

It's amazing how something that appears so simple when everything is working properly can get so complicated when even one of its components gets out of whack, but I guess that's the price we pay for the "automatic" versus manual operation.

Regards, Maurice.

[pk2]

Peter:

The top only opening and not closing (together with the dash button only spinning the motor in one direction) sounds like a problem with either the B-Pillar microswitch or the Main Relay, or a combination of the two...Believe it or not, you can operate your top that way to its complete open or closed position so that you can function on a temporary basis.... It's amazing how something that appears so simple when everything is working properly can get so complicated when even one of its components gets out of whack, but I guess that's the price we pay for the "automatic" versus manual operation.

Regards, Maurice.

More great advice...

Eetz Feegkzed! (Germ-english for, it's fixed!!) It was the double relay up above the fuses on the driver-side. ( I won't bore you with details of how deduced this) I will tell you that I "hacked" it thoug, in the crudest sense of the word.

Unlike every other relays I've messed with (an electromagnet and a couple of electrical contacts) this had a circuit board and two tiny little un-openable boxes inside. I surgically cut them partially open. They were tiny relays. I measured some voltages, cleaned some contacts with a sliver of sand paper. Popped it back in and VIOLA!! IT WORKS!!

Need to fiddle with relays as it doesn't seem to really stop itself in either the full-up or full-down positions. Thought I had checked them... maybe I need a new double relay for the circuit board part that does all the magic, but for now, the relay part works and for the first time in years my top goes up and down. Yeah!

The thing seems to be synced just fine, adjusted the tie rods a bit, pretty much maxed out there length with center bolt, that's it.

Small disappointment is that my remote doesn't work for the top (works for the locks though). The light blinks on my key and on the dash, it just doesn't do any thing.

Anyway (Maurice), thanks a TON for all your patience and great detailed advice! Stay tuned cause I'm not done yet (sorry).

Regards, Peter

P.S. Should the top open and close with "one-touch" or do you have to hold it down through the whole cycle?

Edited September 11, 2007 by pk2

[1schoir]

Peter:

The top only opening and not closing (together with the dash button only spinning the motor in one direction) sounds like a problem with either the B-Pillar microswitch or the Main Relay, or a combination of the two...Believe it or not, you can operate your top that way to its complete open or closed position so that you can function on a temporary basis.... It's amazing how something that appears so simple when everything is working properly can get so complicated when even one of its components gets out of whack, but I guess that's the price we pay for the "automatic" versus manual operation.

Regards, Maurice.

More great advice...

Eetz Feegkzed! (Germ-english for, it's fixed!!) It was the double relay up above the fuses on the driver-side. ( I won't bore you with details of how deduced this) I will tell you that I "hacked" it thoug, in the crudest sense of the word.

Unlike every other relays I've messed with (an electromagnet and a couple of electrical contacts) this had a circuit board and two tiny little un-openable boxes inside. I surgically cut them partially open. They were tiny relays. I measured some voltages, cleaned some contacts with a sliver of sand paper. Popped it back in and VIOLA!! IT WORKS!!

Need to fiddle with relays as it doesn't seem to really stop itself in either the full-up or full-down positions. Thought I had checked them... maybe I need a new double relay for the circuit board part that does all the magic, but for now, the relay part works and for the first time in years my top goes up and down. Yeah!

The thing seems to be synced just fine, adjusted the tie rods a bit, pretty much maxed out there length with center bolt, that's it.

Small disappointment is that my remote doesn't work for the top (works for the locks though). The light blinks on my key and on the dash, it just doesn't do any thing.

Anyway (Maurice), thanks a TON for all your patience and great detailed advice! Stay tuned cause I'm not done yet (sorry).

Regards, Peter

P.S. Should the top open and close with "one-touch" or do you have to hold it down through the whole cycle?

Peter:

Is that like "Farfik Nugen" (the old VW ad) ?

That's great news! I admire your persistence and your ingenuity and I am glad I was able to contribute to the solution.

You do have to hold the open/close button down through the whole cycle.

You are supposed to stop pressing the button when the "convertible top up light" on the dashboard goes out.

On your car, does that light go on when the top first starts to open and also when it first starts to close (from the completely open position with the clamshell down on it) ?

As far as the hack that you did on the relay, or how you deduced that was the problem, it would be useful if you could post the details when you have a chance. I can't tell you how helpful I have found even the most obtuse sentence that someone posted about their solution to be. Sometimes I find myself reading one sentence over and over (like my law books) and then it just clicks.

Anyway, great job and I'm sure that with the help of others on this board we can figure it out to a successful (and rewarding) conclusion.

Regards, Maurice.

[pk2]

Is that like "Farfik Nugen" (the old VW ad) ?

That's great news! ...On your car, does that light go on when the top first starts to open and also when it first starts to close (from the completely open position with the clamshell down on it) ?

As far as the hack that you did on the relay, or how you deduced that was the problem, it would be useful if you could post the details when you have a chance. I can't tell you how helpful I have found even the most obtuse sentence that someone posted about their solution to be. Sometimes I find myself reading one sentence over and over (like my law books) and then it just clicks.

Anyway, great job and I'm sure that with the help of others on this board we can figure it out to a successful (and rewarding) conclusion.

Regards, Maurice.

Farfik Nugen :D LOL... Think I recall that that was deemed the most unsuccessful, annoying add campaign of it's time.

Thanks for the encoragment. Latest wrinkle; I've gone back and checked my relays with the exception of 2 on the "lock" mechanism (the handle latch thing above the windshield). My top up light is permanently on. Sticking my finger in there doesn’t do anything, I'm going to check them but I wont be surprised if they both work.

There's a lot of little nuances the circuit board on the double top relay (as I recall reading somewhere), for instance, that in the top up cycle, it actually keeps the motor running for a split second or so longer after release of the button to further cinch the clam shell down. Don.t really think that's happening here.

With the light on always, my remote not working and, no noticeable movement in the clamshell after the buttons released, I'm kind of thinking there's damage on the circuit board as there doesn't seem to be any logic or intelligence apparent in it's fiuntions. I think fixing the subcomponent part (relay)of it allows it to function sans any bells and whistles.

Regards,

Peter

Maurice, while you said an my manual confirmed it, the light on the dash just tells you when stop pushing the button only. I responded to somebody’s post, forget the subject, who mention in passing that his top automatically stops when the light goes out. Seems totally logical, if your circuitry can turn out a light it can turn of a motor. I wonder if this was a feature in later models. Further wonder if a newer dbl. relay would work in an older car and provide this advance capability... wonder if theirs a hack that someone as ignorant as I could whip up…requisite signals are sure all there…

P.S. Do you think my conv. top relay hack warrents a post?

Edited September 12, 2007 by pk2

[1schoir]

Is that like "Farfik Nugen" (the old VW ad) ?

That's great news! ...On your car, does that light go on when the top first starts to open and also when it first starts to close (from the completely open position with the clamshell down on it) ?

As far as the hack that you did on the relay, or how you deduced that was the problem, it would be useful if you could post the details when you have a chance. I can't tell you how helpful I have found even the most obtuse sentence that someone posted about their solution to be. Sometimes I find myself reading one sentence over and over (like my law books) and then it just clicks.

Anyway, great job and I'm sure that with the help of others on this board we can figure it out to a successful (and rewarding) conclusion.

Regards, Maurice.

Farfik Nugen :D LOL... Think I recall that that was deemed the most unsuccessful, annoying add campaign of it's time.

Thanks for the encoragment. Latest wrinkle; I've gone back and checked my relays with the exception of 2 on the "lock" mechanism (the handle latch thing above the windshield). My top up light is permanently on. Sticking my finger in there doesn’t do anything, I'm going to check them but I wont be surprised if they both work.

There's a lot of little nuances the circuit board on the double top relay (as I recall reading somewhere), for instance, that in the top up cycle, it actually keeps the motor running for a split second or so longer after release of the button to further cinch the clam shell down. Don.t really think that's happening here.

With the light on always, my remote not working and, no noticeable movement in the clamshell after the buttons released, I'm kind of thinking there's damage on the circuit board as there doesn't seem to be any logic or intelligence apparent in it's fiuntions. I think fixing the subcomponent part (relay)of it allows it to function sans any bells and whistles.

Regards,

Peter

Maurice, while you said an my manual confirmed it, the light on the dash just tells you when stop pushing the button only. I responded to somebody’s post, forget the subject, who mention in passing that his top automatically stops when the light goes out. Seems totally logical, if your circuitry can turn out a light it can turn of a motor. I wonder if this was a feature in later models. Further wonder if a newer dbl. relay would work in an older car and provide this advance capability... wonder if theirs a hack that someone as ignorant as I could whip up…requisite signals are sure all there…

P.S. Do you think my conv. top relay hack warrents a post?

Peter:

I think that the light on the dashboard goes out after the two microswitches (B-Pillar and Lever on top of motor) send signals to the Convertible Top main relay, which then processes them and, turns it off following the "after-running" time (that is also provided by the relay).

I think that the automatic stopping of the motor with the turning out of the light is a feature that is on all of the model years, not just the later ones, but I am not 100% positive. I do know that the relays for MY 97 to 99 are different than the later ones, but that may be because the B-Pillar microswitch was moved to the driver side (left) side transmissions (even though the factory manual says the passenger side) with the newer (B Version ) style transmissions that were introduced in May of 1999.

Your convertible top relay hack definitely warrants a post. You never know who it might help understand this whole process down the line.

Regards, Maurice.

Edited March 22, 2009 by 1schoir