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niceguy

tiptronic problem

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Hi,

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 2000 996TT Tip with 38000 miles on the clock and it has been dripping a few drops on the floor every month. Due to the minor leakage, I left it untouched and strangely, it stopped completely since 3 months ago. And I was running her fine with zero problem until a few days ago.

On top of the leakage, my maf is also on its way out. I have cleaned it a couple of times and it had always helped but the slow throttle response and abs & psm light still come on once every 2-3 months.

So, now, let me describe the problem with my Tip box. As I was giving it the full beans in 2nd gear last Sunday, it failed to shift from 2nd to 3rd and slippage was felt because the boost and the power was there. The power just wasnt transferred to the wheels. The 4th gear light and the d light were flashing right after that and the warning Tiptronic Emergency Run was shown on the dash. I drove it home gently, just a 3 miles drive and weirdly it drove like it had zero problem and it went through each gear just as healthily and smoothly as before. Except on one hill start moment, the power again felt like it wasnt being transferred to the wheels as well as before. And, I have not driven the car since then.

Having downloaded and read the procedures of the aft and filter change in the Porsche Workshop Manual online, I am suspecting it could just be a lack of aft fluid and a plugged filter causing the slip while the maf causing the Tip Emergency Run light.

What do you boys think? I would appreciate it if you could share your advice.

James

Edited by niceguy

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Hi,

Any help would be greatly appreciated. 2000 996TT Tip with 38000 miles on the clock and it has been dripping a few drops on the floor every month. Due to the minor leakage, I left it untouched and strangely, it stopped completely since 3 months ago. And I was running her fine with zero problem until a few days ago.

On top of the leakage, my maf is also on its way out. I have cleaned it a couple of times and it had always helped but the slow throttle response and abs & psm light still come on once every 2-3 months.

So, now, let me describe the problem with my Tip box. As I was giving it the full beans in 2nd gear last Sunday, it failed to shift from 2nd to 3rd and slippage was felt because the boost and the power was there. The power just wasnt transferred to the wheels. The 4th gear light and the d light were flashing right after that and the warning Tiptronic Emergency Run was shown on the dash. I drove it home gently, just a 3 miles drive and weirdly it drove like it had zero problem and it went through each gear just as healthily and smoothly as before. Except on one hill start moment, the power again felt like it wasnt being transferred to the wheels as well as before. And, I have not driven the car since then.

Having downloaded and read the procedures of the aft and filter change in the Porsche Workshop Manual online, I am suspecting it could just be a lack of aft fluid and a plugged filter causing the slip while the maf causing the Tip Emergency Run light.

What do you boys think? I would appreciate it if you could share your advice.

James

Hi James ,

If your getting warning Tiptronic Emergency Run , its because you have a problem with the tip box. Sounds like low oil but you will have to have it checked out. You must have the fault codes read out and by the sounds of it there will be quite a few. Some will cross ref with each other as one fault can cause another which will also be recorded. for eg, low fluid level will give a low pressure code, but low pressure will also cause slippage of the clutches which will give their own codes.

PST2 or Durametric can read out all the codes.you must get it checked. If the clutch packs have slipped excessively they will be damaged. and your into repair territory.

Edited by Sunnyside

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Hi Sunnyside,

I really hope it is just a sign of low oil and you are being very logical with the codes that will show up as cross referenced. I am going to let the local indi specialist to scan the codes and change the ATF and filter next Tuesday. Frankly, it only slipped once before I drove the car 5 miles home and parked it there ever since. Would my clutch parks have slipped excessively and caused some damage already?

Can the Durametric read Tip's ATF temperature during the AFT & filter change? Also, my local indy is suggesting to use Mercedes Benz ATF and filter. Is that a bad idea? What is the best ATF for my 2000 996 TT Tip?

Thanks a lot for your post!

James

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Hi Sunnyside,

I really hope it is just a sign of low oil and you are being very logical with the codes that will show up as cross referenced. I am going to let the local indi specialist to scan the codes and change the ATF and filter next Tuesday. Frankly, it only slipped once before I drove the car 5 miles home and parked it there ever since. Would my clutch parks have slipped excessively and caused some damage already?

Can the Durametric read Tip's ATF temperature during the AFT & filter change? Also, my local indy is suggesting to use Mercedes Benz ATF and filter. Is that a bad idea? What is the best ATF for my 2000 996 TT Tip?

Thanks a lot for your post!

James

Hi Sunnyside,

I really hope it is just a sign of low oil and you are being very logical with the codes that will show up as cross referenced. I am going to let the local indi specialist to scan the codes and change the ATF and filter next Tuesday. Frankly, it only slipped once before I drove the car 5 miles home and parked it there ever since. Would my clutch parks have slipped excessively and caused some damage already?

Can the Durametric read Tip's ATF temperature during the AFT & filter change? Also, my local indy is suggesting to use Mercedes Benz ATF and filter. Is that a bad idea? What is the best ATF for my 2000 996 TT Tip?

Thanks a lot for your post!

James

I know PST2can read tip temp and I'm 99% sure durametrics can as well. The tip box is made by mercedes, so as long as its the same item, be it under a different name I'm sure the filter will not only be megga cheaper but will be fine.

I use the OEM ATF for my tip , but again, if Mercedes have the same stuff under a different name it will do. BUT. Make sure its to all the exact specifications.

As to the clutch packs, most likely you will not have done any major damage so long as that's all it did ie Just one slip.

However, if you find that there is plenty of fluid in the box (by which I mean the correct level , no more and no less) then there is a good chance that the slippage is caused by the ATF pump in side the box. They can develop a crack in the pump housing which inevitably means reduced oil pressure and clutch pack slippage. That's a big repair but lets not worry about that at this stage.

I can only take it form your post that your car has no power mods because after about 550 bhp the clutch pack can slip anyway??

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I should have mentioned that my car is running UMZ tune, DV and 200 cell RPI exhaust at around 500 bhp. How should I check if the problem is fixed or not after reading the code and atf and filter change without risking the gearbox?

A big thank you for your post again!!

James

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I should have mentioned that my car is running UMZ tune, DV and 200 cell RPI exhaust at around 500 bhp. How should I check if the problem is fixed or not after reading the code and atf and filter change without risking the gearbox?

A big thank you for your post again!!

James

James, you will just have to run the car and see. If its going to slip 3rd gear clutch packs will go first as they are the smallest in diameter and the least amount of them in the box. 500 bhp is not enough to upset the clutch packs. Over 550 will start to give problems. It is in fact Torque that kills the clutch packs so its the torque figure that really counts . Above 550 bhp and over 550 ft lbs torque will start to wear the packs and cause slippage.

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I just checked with my tune. Torque should be under 550 ft lbs. I also read that the 1st and 2nd gear clutch are together in one pack and while 3rd is the weakest link due to it being in one pack on its own. When you say it is going to slip in 3rd, do you mean I should find slip in 3rd while accelerating or trying to shift from 3rd to 4th? The problem is that I am getting slip while i was in 2nd trying to accelerate. It simply slipped before speed was built up in 2nd gear. I got the only slip in my 1st attempt in hitting any boost that night. What logical guess can you think of?

Thank you very much for your help!!

James

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I just checked with my tune. Torque should be under 550 ft lbs. I also read that the 1st and 2nd gear clutch are together in one pack and while 3rd is the weakest link due to it being in one pack on its own. When you say it is going to slip in 3rd, do you mean I should find slip in 3rd while accelerating or trying to shift from 3rd to 4th? The problem is that I am getting slip while i was in 2nd trying to accelerate. It simply slipped before speed was built up in 2nd gear. I got the only slip in my 1st attempt in hitting any boost that night. What logical guess can you think of?

Thank you very much for your help!!

James

Hi James there are 2 or 3 common types of slip, probably more but the most common types are :

1 Slippage from having too much torque, normally felt when accelerating in 3rd ( for reasons already stated) . This slippage is normally in the mid engine rev range when the car is under max Torque.

2. Slippage in 3rd due to reduced oil pressure, can be caused by a number of things but commonly a damaged oil pump ( cracked housing) will reduce the clutch clamping pressure enough for the Torque pull on 3rd again to make the packs slip. This would also show as an increase in engine speed when you actually change gear. Just as if a manual car had a slipping clutch. As the clutch pack eventually bites, the slippage stops and all is well untill you do another gear change. Eventually, though, this will wear out the clutch packs.

3. Low oil in box, blocked oil pick up and or filter or severely damaged pump . This can cause slippage in any gear.

Of course damage or blockage to any individual solenoid actuator valves will also cause the associated clutch pack to either not engage at all, be slow to engage.

There are a number of speed sensors in the box, N1, N2........ etc These measure the speed relationship between different parts of the gear shafts.If it senses that a shaft that is split with a gear on it is not turning at the same speed ( ie a differential speed) it will log a fault code. If they sense excessive speed difference (large slippage) that is likely to cause damage it will put the box into Emergency Run mode, also the DME will be told to reduce throttle angle and hence reduce the available power and help protect the box further.

This is why you WILL have code logged in the TCU and also the DME

These boxes are incredibly complicated and it could be a multitude of reasons why you slip in 2nd. it could be the solenoid valve blocked? Again codes will help point you in the right direction.

post the codes an i will past the description of the fault for you.

Frank

Edited by Sunnyside

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Hi Frank,

Thank you very much for your insightful reply. You have educated me with knowledge that I really need at this moment. Your help is really appreciated!! :notworthy:

Having read your descriptions, I think my slip is not likely to be type 1 or 2 because there wasn't any increase in engine speed when I change up or down between 3rd-5th gears in normal driving (without boost). The slight increase in engine speed only happens in 2nd to 3rd at around 2800-3000 rpm. It used to change a few hundred rpm earlier than that.

I will post here to share my fault codes and I am sure you are right that there will surely be some. Once again, thank you for your big help and I have definitely learnt a lot today.

My conclusion is of course biased because that is my car. But, anyway, I will be bringing it to the garage and I really hope she is going to make a full recovery so that I can spend more time with her in this coming year.

James

Edited by niceguy

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How do I make sure my local indi specialist will scan thereadings of TCU and DME?

Thks

James

If he uses Porsche System Tester PST2, PIWIS , Durametric or Autologic testing equipment he will be able to read out all the DME and TCU fault codes.

A simple hand held code reader IMO will not be sufficient. If your Indy does not have the correct test equipment then he is not a suitable indy to take your car to in the first place. These cars produce codes faster than Greece prints money. You need an Indy that's can read, data log and down load codes. All of them!

if you want a full description of what the codes are post them up and I will copy the relevant pages form the Workshop Manual.

Ps you want one of these: http://www.durametric.com/default.aspx

Considering you have what was once a $150,000 car the extra cost of a Durametric is well worth the investment.

Ps PS I should have said with the type 2 as I describe it, the slippage when you change gear ( like a manual clutch slipping and associated increase in engine speed) only happened on mine under load, you could drive the car about normally and never know there was a problem. I believe it has to do with there being enough oil pressure to stop slippage under low torque but once the torque increases the oil pressure is insufficient. My Tip had a Hairline crack in the pump housing ( common by all accounts). I now have an MKB uprated Tip and TCU.

Edited by Sunnyside

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Thank you again for your reply!! My indy has durametic and I am going to share my codes and pics of the aft fluid n the pan once they are taken off. Does changing the oil pump casing require stripping down the gearbox or can it be done without extensive labor?

Appreciated for your post 

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Thank you again for your reply!! My indy has durametic and I am going to share my codes and pics of the aft fluid n the pan once they are taken off. Does changing the oil pump casing require stripping down the gearbox or can it be done without extensive labor?

Appreciated for your post 

I am afraid to say its a box out and full strip down job. Also at that point your clutch packs should also be changed out as well.

I suppose it would cost you over states side in the region of $2000 to simply overhaul. The pump its self is about $300. I'm sure theres some one over with you that can do the same ore even uprate the clutch packs for you.

It will be interesting to read some of the codes.

Changing out the fluid and filter is quite easy, the fluid is a dark crimson reddish new, but if the oil has got too hot caused by continuous hard high power driving or also by slipping clutch packs the oil turns very dull golden to brown and can smell odd , sort of a sintered smell. once ATF is overheated it never recovers even if just heated for a short period. Excessively overheated Tip fluid can destroy a box in a matter of a few hundred miles!!

Edited by Sunnyside

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Sunnyside, have you actually seen a oil pump with a crank housing on these trannies? Are they common?

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Sunnyside, have you actually seen a oil pump with a crank housing on these trannies? Are they common?

Stripping down a Tip box is well out of my paygrade (lol) and expertise so I have never seen inside the box, only schematics. Manual boxes , cant see an issue with stripping down but the thought of stripping down an auto Tip's TBH scares the life out of me. apparently MKB see this quite often.

Its an issue with me , a keen hands on guy that I cant fully maintain my car .With my other cars ,Cosworths for eg , I could strip down any part of the car and rebuild. OK with it being a Ford that was fairly regular.lol. I suppose I would prefer to fix problems more frequently that are within my scope, than have a car that remains fairly reliable but eventually when something mayor does go wrong I cant do anything.

Will be interesting to see what codes are read out.

TBH i would hope that its something simple like an actuator solenoid failing, so long as the clutch packs have not been damaged and the oil not fried, it might not be such a "big fix". I was unlucky, I replaced the filter and fluid, which is not cheep, in the hope that was the problem. Alas, mKB found the defective pump. So I had a full MKB power kit mod done with the TCU upgrade as well.

Edited by Sunnyside

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Read from durametric, car feels v sluggish and refuses to drive in speed below 10mph. Once it goes up to around 20mph or so it drives fine and not sluggish.

DME

P0102 hot film maf

P0701 tip gear impulsable, transmission slip

P0715 tip supply voltage, speed sensor

Tiptronic

14 speed comparison between n2 and n3 implausible

50 impermissible transmission ratio

5525 Torque transfer disturbed at times

My Indy thinks the above are caused by my bad maf and low ATF level. Please advise what these codes are suggesting. Thank you v much!!

James

Edited by niceguy

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Read from durametric, car feels v sluggish and refuses to drive in speed below 10mph. Once it goes up to around 20mph or so it drives fine and not sluggish.

DME

P0102 hot film maf

P0701 tip gear impulsable, transmission slip

P0715 tip supply voltage, speed sensor

Tiptronic

14 speed comparison between n2 and n3 implausible

50 impermissible transmission ratio

5525 Torque transfer disturbed at times

My Indy thinks the above are caused by my bad maf and low ATF level. Please advise what these codes are suggesting. Thank you v much!!

James

P0102 Mass air flow sensor – below limit

Possible fault cause

- Open circuit

- Short circuit to ground

- Mass air flow sensor faulty

P0701 Excessive speed n2 or n3

Possible fault cause

- Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

- Excessive speed sensor n3 or outer disk bracket faulty

P0715 Speed comparison n2 with n3 implausible

Possible cause of fault

- Short circuit to B+/ground/between wires or open circuit

- Speed sensor n2 or n3 faulty

- Tiptronic control unit faulty

Note: The speed sensors are housed in the electrical part of the hydraulic control unit. If a speed sensor is faulty, the complete electrical part of the hydraulic control unit must be replaced.

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Thanks loren fir your reply!!

Omg, so many possible faults. the indy is only doing the aft and filter change for me at the moment. Is there anything else i should ask him to replace while we are at it?

James

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I would like to add that the Indy said the old ATF fluid still looks reasonably well do not smell burnt, acrid or bad in any way and that there were very minimal deposits. So, now new ATF filter n fluid are going in.

Ps the leak only happens at the oil pan gasket. And that only 3-3.5L of old ATF fluid were able to be extracted from the gearbox.

Is the car being fixed the way it should?

James

Edited by niceguy

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I would like to add that the Indy said the old ATF fluid still looks reasonably well do not smell burnt, acrid or bad in any way and that there were very minimal deposits. So, now new ATF filter n fluid are going in.

Ps the leak only happens at the oil pan gasket. And that only 3-3.5L of old ATF fluid were able to be extracted from the gearbox.

Is the car being fixed the way it should?

James

I would like to add that the Indy said the old ATF fluid still looks reasonably well do not smell burnt, acrid or bad in any way and that there were very minimal deposits. So, now new ATF filter n fluid are going in.

Ps the leak only happens at the oil pan gasket. And that only 3-3.5L of old ATF fluid were able to be extracted from the gearbox.

Is the car being fixed the way it should?

James

Hi James, you should normally get about 4.5 lts of oil out on a change. The box hold about 9 ltrs abut only 4.5 ltr are removed.

I would also check the wiring connector half way down on the left hand side of the Tip box. Its quite short and can be under some strain. Its also open to the elements . I have known of a plug failing due to corrosion and one other had pulled the plug apart.

The Tip P codes form the DME are generated form the TCU and are not comprehensive. You need to have the TCU fault codes read out as well .Here are the TCU fault codes for P701:

0-8

P0701

15 Excessive speed n2 or n3

A check is carried out to ascertain whether the n2 sensor signal or

the n3 sensor signal exceed a limit value. The aim of the fault detection

is to detect a hydraulic or mechanical malfunction of the transmission.

The frictional connection is interrupted by the Tiptronic control module

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

n2 > 7000 rpm or n3 > 7000 rpm

Possible fault cause

Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

Excessive speed sensor n3 or outer disk bracket faulty

Affected terminals.

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

End

................................................................................................

49 Excessive speed engine

The CAN engine speed signal is checked to ascertain whether a

limit value is exceeded. The aim of the fault detection is to detect a

hydraulic or mechanical malfunction of the transmission.

The frictional connection is interrupted by the Tiptronic control module

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

Engine speed > maximum switch speed + offset (e.g. max.

switch speed = 6000 rpm, offset = 500 rpm)

Possible fault cause

Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

Affected terminals

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

End

........................................................................................

TBC

Edited by Sunnyside

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Right you are, Sunnyside. I have good news, just got the car back and went for a test drive. The car is back to normal again with up-hill starts and successful full throttle gear changes in any gear. Gear changes are now silky smooth and quick as it was.

The indy said only 3.5 liters of ATF fluid came out of the gearbox during the change and they managed to fill 5.5L back in. Is there anything that I should now watch out for about the gearbox and other parts of the car before it goes wrong?

Have I overlooked something from the fault codes?

Really appreciate for all the help!!!

James

Edited by niceguy

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Right you are, Sweeney. I have good news, just got the car back and went for a test drive. The car is back to normal again with up-hill starts and successful full throttle gear changes in any gear. Gear changes are now silky smooth and quick as it was.

The indy said only 3.5 liters of ATF fluid came out of the gearbox during the change and they managed to fill 5.5L back in. Is there anything that I should now watch out for about the gearbox and other parts of the car before it goes wrong?

Have I overlooked something from the fault codes?

Really appreciate for all the help!!!

James

That's good news, as i said last post he box should hold about 9 lts of fluid and you should change out 4.5. so it looks like you were low on ATF. Your indy will tell you its also critical to have the correct level, hence the reason why the Tip box should be filled IIRC between 20-40 deg C

Anyway, good its running well. Did your indy delete the fault codes stored in the TCU, this is different to the fault codes stored in the DME??? Its very important that he did so if you have any re-ocurance of faults you dont get confused with the last faults stored.

Here are the other 2 TCU tip codes. for p701 Sorry there all pasted form a PDF file and I am having a hell of a time getting it right to paste on here.

P0701

15 Excessive speed n2 or n3

A check is carried out to ascertain whether the n2 sensor signal or

the n3 sensor signal exceed a limit value. The aim of the fault detection

is to detect a hydraulic or mechanical malfunction of the transmission.

The frictional connection is interrupted by the Tiptronic control module

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

n2 > 7000 rpm or n3 > 7000 rpm

Possible fault cause♦

Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

Excessive speed sensor n3 or outer disk bracket faulty

Affected terminals.

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

→ End

................................................................................................

49 Excessive speed engine

The CAN engine speed signal is checked to ascertain whether a

limit value is exceeded. The aim of the fault detection is to detect a

hydraulic or mechanical malfunction of the transmission.

The frictional connection is interrupted by the Tiptronic control module

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

Engine speed > maximum switch speed + offset (e.g. max.

switch speed = 6000 rpm, offset = 500 rpm)

Possible fault cause

Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

Affected terminals

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

→ End

........................................................................................

TBC

50 Impermissible transmission ratio

The transmission is checked to ascertain whether it shifts down

permissible

The frictional connection is interrupted by the Tiptronic control module!

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

Possible fault caus

Mechanical fault in the front planetary gears

Affected terminals

-

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

→ End

..................................................................................

51 Transmission slips or gear implausible

Checks are carried out to ascertain whether a gear is implausible or

the transmission slips.

The redundancy transistor is switched off. The setpoint values of

the current regulator are set to 0 and all change-over valves are

switched off. The control module is then in emergency operation.

Minimal cycle is additionally activated.

Diagnosis conditions

Ignition on

No active gearshift

No speed n2 fault

Engine speed n2 > 150 rpm

No selector lever fault

No CAN faul

No PSM fault

At least one plausible rear wheel speed

All plausible PSM wheel speeds > 50 rpm

Difference between right and left wheel speed < 100 rpm (rear

and front)

Output shaft speed > 180 rpm

Engine speed > 450 rpm

Possible fault cause

Leak in hydraulic wiring

Leak in mechanical transmission parts

Oil filter missing

Affected terminals

Diagnosis/Troubleshooting

Note!

Work instruction Display OK If not OK

1 Disassemble transmission and repair according to findings

→ End

Edited by Sunnyside

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Hi Sunnyside,

Thanks for posting the pdf!! It is great!!

The indy deleted both the codes in the Tiptronic / TCU, ECU (is this also named as DME?) on his PWIS. I am going to take the car back in a few days to have another scan to see if any problem is still present. Hopefully nothing will be left.

Thank you very much for your help and I wish you enjoy your lovely TT and may it be as healthy as new!

James

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Hi Sunnyside,

Thanks for posting the pdf!! It is great!!

The indy deleted both the codes in the Tiptronic / TCU, ECU (is this also named as DME?) on his PWIS. I am going to take the car back in a few days to have another scan to see if any problem is still present. Hopefully nothing will be left.

Thank you very much for your help and I wish you enjoy your lovely TT and may it be as healthy as new!

James

Good news James.

If your indy has a PIWIS then he's on the ball, so great job. Yes the DME is the ECU.

Even if you experience no further issues, the TCU will have adaption values stored and will also store any slippage of the clutch packs even though the slippage might not be enought to trigger a fault code. Its a good way to see if the box is starting to fail. James at Nine Excellence over here noticed mine was in fact slipping in every gear even changing down gear as well.

I think you would still be wise to invest in a Durametric, they do loads of things not just read codes. eg you can run all your fans at different speeds, check our alarm, switch off individual coil packs to find a misfire. etc etc x100.lol

Edited by Sunnyside

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Hi Sunnyside,

Thank you for your insightful reply again. Really appreciated. You saved me from losing sleep over the gearbox.

I am going to bring the car to the indy after a week's worth of driving after the aft change. Having driven it hard and soft for a couple of days, I experienced only smooth and slick gear changes. The question is, where to look for the Adaption Values in the TCU? Is it stored under the menu of Tiptronic on a PIWIS 1? I will be posting those values once I get them. Finger crossed until then.

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