JFP in PA

Byron:

Excellent work finding the cause, even if it was a PITA.

You might want to reconsider the lightweight flywheel option.

FWIW, at Sebring two weekends ago, one of the cars campaigned by a racing group from New York broke a crankshaft on a 996 engine that was running a lightweight flywheel.

Charles Navarro of LN Engineering, as well as others, have long cautioned against the use of lightweight flywheel unless the engine is disassembled and the crankshaft and flywheel are balanced as one unit.

Regards, Maurice.

+1...........

Like most other “extractor systems”, it will not always be able to reach the bottom of the sumps because things are in the way, so it will leave behind some of the old oil and crud you should be removing. There are drain plugs on the bottom of the oil sump and the gear box for a reason……..

Contact Jake Raby at Flat Six Innovations in GA; Jake is "the man" when it comes to M96/97 engines, anything from mild to wild. Do a "google" on his business and you will see what I mean...........

Flat Six Innovations

You might also consider a motor out of a wreck, Mike Focke's website has identified some good "boneyards:

Mike's site

And do not have anything to do with Motor Meisters, their reputation for ripping people off is well known. You should also remain cognizant of the fact that any quality rebuild is going to be expensive; these engines had several know issues that should be addressed, plus the design makes them no picnic to work on as they require a lot of specialized single use tooling.

In general, Porsche dealers do not want to CPO a car that has been “outside” of their control; e.g.: Sold by a third non-Porsche party. You may find exceptions to that, but I believe it is a fairly widespread reality.

The Tip equipped cars had a larger battery and a different alternator with higher output.

Yes, a special tool is need; in fact, it is so “special” that only Porsche sells it for a little over $100. But you can make one yourself in about 15 min. with some scrap tubing, a hack saw and a file………………

Is there any maintenace schedule for replacing the

carbon Canister filter? It is part 8 in the picture.

The reason I am asking is because of there not being a fuel filter.

Paul

I don not believe there is a specific interval for changing the filter, but only if and when there are certain EVAP system related codes. In any case, part #997-201-501-00 is only about $30.

Jake Raby (Flat Six Innovations in Cleveland, Georgia; about an hour and a half outside Atlanta) is one of, if not the pre-eminent builders of the M96/97 engine. Jake offers engines from in various output configurations. He also currently has about an eight month backlog of customer engines in his shop, which also says something about his engines.

The lightest oil we put in any Porshe's is 10W-40, and it ain't a Mobil 1 product either.

The best way to find an electrical drain it to put a multi-meter between the positive battery cable and the battery terminal, and set it on current (mA). Should read in the 40 - 60 mA range, if it is higher, start pulling the fuses one at a time until the draw suddenly drops. That circuit is the issue..........................

You are getting a weak or non existent signal from the CPS on bank 2; possible wiring issue or a bad sensor.

Not really; these things do not necessarily do a good job of getting all the oil out as they do not take into account what may be in the way of getting the hose to the bottom of the sump. There is a drain plug on the bottom of the sump for a simple reason..............

The voltage regulator is common to Porsche, Audi, MB, and VW. VW usually has the lowest price for it.

As I believe you are referring to the Porsche Sports Exhaust (PSE), yes I will fit on a 2.5L, but requires a hardware adapter kit because the early 2.5L setup was a little different. Any decent dealer parts department should be able to get it for you.

Ouch! I’ve never cared for solid lightweight flywheels for other reasons, this just adds one more reason………..

Byron, I’d first be dead certain that the sensor and wiring harness are working correctly before yanking the gearbox back out.

As the crank position sensor reads from a shutter wheel behind the flywheel, and you have a new aftermarket flywheel, I'd start there. Perhaps you should contact the manufacturer.

Thanks for the replies.

1. I haven't been able to drop any oil out of the car, but the dipstick looks clean. Also, when the dealer installed the new reservoir tank, I had them do a full oil/filter change. I would hope they would notice something like that when they changed the filter. No?

2. The code on my reservoir cap ends in .01 so I guess I'll order a new, updated cap. However, the entire reservoir assembly is dry to the touch...all the time...and there is no evidence of liquid anywhere near it in the engine bay.

3. My windows do tend to fog up a lot, but not while the engine is running. There is condensation in the cabin and when it cools (-20 to -40 here) it gives me frozen windows on the inside. So I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

The issue I have with continuously just bringing it to the dealer is the fact of how far away they are. Since buying the car in July, I've had to take it to Porsche 7 times, at 1000 Kms roundtrip overtime. Not that resale value is my primary concern, but the value of these 996's is definitely tied to their mileage more than their age. So the far that I've taken the car from 96000 Kms to 113000 Kms in 6 months would lead to a disturbing forecast of mileage accumulation over the next couple years.

I bought a 911 partially because of their extremely high rate of reliability. I guess there should be an asterisk next to that claim excluding the 996 series.

1. Don't assume anything about a dealer; some are very good, some not so. We have seen cars just out of dealerships with all sorts of nonsense that was plain to see for anyone that looked, but apparently no one did. Even within a good dealer, there are less than adequate techs.

2. Get the .04 cap.

3. Unless you live in an equatorial rain forest, you windows should not be covered with condensate, frozen or otherwise. You may have a heater core issue, which is not that hard or time consuming to fix.

4. Find a good independent that is not on the other side of the planet. Independents, unlike dealers that automatically have a captive audience, live or die on their reputations.

In January of 2010, I had the engine in my 05 997 S replaced for free by Porsche with a new engine due to severe scoring on the #6 cylinder wall (Thank You Porsche!), and am wondering if the new engine that was replaced should have any of these RMS/IMS failures?

I know it's a defect inherent in the 997.1 engine design (and 996 as well), but am hoping this defect has been worked around or resolved effectively with the new replacement engine.

Any replacement engine supplied by Porsche in 2010 would have the very latest RMS design, so you are fine there. The IMS would also be their last version design, which still has some level of potential to fail. It is also the design that cannot be replaced without disassembling the engine as it is too large to fit through the opening in the rear of the cases. But then you should have also gotten an additional two year warranty on the new engine..........

I'd have to go +1 with Loren on this; I'd be looking at the oil, and even if it looks OK, sending a sample of it out to an oil analysis lab to look for evidence of coolant intrusion. When coolant is disappearing, and it ain’t on the ground, the engine is either burning it off (head gasket or cylinder head) or it will be in the oil. I’d also be pulling the spark plugs as a cylinder seeping water with have one or more rather strange looking plugs, which would also show up in the cylinder if a bore scope is used………..

Mike Focke has some good dismantlers on his website.

Thanks JFP. Great links. snorth54 post seems to support my above claim that deviation never changes because it's a value that is only calculated during cranking, because it's a reflection of base mechanical timing.

He recorded:

The camshaft position 1 deviation is always 1.28 regardless of RPM

The camshaft position 2 deviation is always -0-09 regardless of RPM

Actual angle is totally different and does change dynamically because it displays, not the mechanical base timing, but the actual movement of the variocam mechanism.

He notes:

At 3522 RPM the Spec angle for inlet camshaft bank 1 is -40 and the Spec angle for camshaft bank 2 is -40

At 3522 RPM the Actual angle for inlet camshaft bank 1 is -39.65 and the Spec angle for camshaft bank 2 is -40.12

The deviation and actual values should mean the same thing regardless of whether it's variocam or variocam plus. The only differece would be in the actual values themselves, @25 max for the former and @ 40 for the latter.

Based on your experience, does this make sense (as this is all theoretical)?

Thanks again

Theoretically, CPS deviation value should be zero at an idle, unfortunately in the real world, it never is due to tolerances or wear on the components, and you always end up with a slight odd value. The big issue with checking the IMS condition using cam deviation values is that, at idle speed, the deviation value remains steady, and is not moving around (usually back and forth), indicating that the cams are moving back and forth, which can only mean bad news at the IMS. So the DME is seeing the deviation change in real time, not just during cranking. When you do see the deviation values moving back and forth at an idle, you will typically also see the actual values jumping around as well at just about any RPM, and this is particularly disconcerting when the engine transitions from increasing to decreasing RPM.

On an engine in good condition and with a solid IMS, you will still see the slightly off zero CPS deviation values at an idle, but they will not change and will indicate a fairly constant value. When the VarioCam (or VarioCam +) kicks in at elevated RPM's, the deviation values should also remain fairly steady as the actual values change, but the actual values should also remain relatively steady at a given RPM as well. The differences between the indicated deviation values and the actual values are usually fairly close, but not always exactly the same.

JFP,

This is true. But it seems the value that is read while the car is running is a value that the DME calculated during cranking. So if the relationship of the cams to crank changed while the car was running and the car has not been turned off and re-cranked the deviation value will not change. The car would have to be re-started so that during cranking the DME can recheck this calculation and then display the new value while running.

I know many cars that work like this, but I don't know if this is the case with Porsche.

If you or anybody else has actually seen the deviation values change while the car is running, then this will prove that Porsche's system is different than most out there.

I have, and they do change with the engine running, that is how you test the VarioCam, you get values at idle and at higher RPM's. For example, on a 3.4 VarioCam, you set the Durametric for “actual values” and then select the cam position function, and you will see the values change starting at about 1,500 RPM and moving up to higher values up to around 5,000 RPM.

There have been threads, with data, on this site and others on this exact topic……………

Here ya go: Live cam deviation values thread on Rennlist and a more detailed one: Cam deviation values thread on RennTech

JFP, I was under the impression that the deviation values was calculated at cranking and was not "live" data. So if the IMS went, the only way to see a change would be to note the deviation, turn the car off and then on again and recheck to see if it changed.

Is this right? If it's not, have you ever seen deviation values change while the car is running?

Thanks again.

Both the Durametric (Pro) and the PIWIS can see the cam deviation values live (engine running). You can see the cam positions (in degrees) at idle and at RPM, which is a diagnostic for checking how well (or if) the VarioCam is working.

JFP,

In addition to coleta's question....Will the technician know what the tolerance or allowable 'wobble' allowed between the cams? Do you measure the variance at accel then again at decel? I'm not planning to crack the engine open at my cost. If Porsche is covering the RMS I'm thinking they might cover IMS but it would need to be defendable. When Porsche fixes IMS issues do they replace the case? In my situation I suspect I don't have an obvious failure if any at all so a bearing going bad might be difficult to prove. To replace the bearing with the LN version as a preventative measure might be costly and risk other problems later.

I'd doubt that they have any experience with reading the cams and learning anything from it. Yes, we would look at both RPM rise and fall as the cams tend to get pretty erratic as the engine transitions, indicating that something that shouldn't be is moving. But, as I mentioned to another poster, this can also result from other issues as well, so further investigation is required if you encounter it. You should also be aware that by the time the engine gets to this state, it is literally "on the edge" of failure, and can go at any time.

I also doubt that the dealer is going to do anything with the IMS unless there is significant metal in the oil and filter. While it may sound like heresy, the dealer's tech's are simply not trained and/or equipped to work on the internal assembly of this engine; so they just replace the entire engine when they encounter a bad IMS. From their perspective, it just makes more economic sense to pull the engine and replace it (at last count, a full set of just the special tools required to scratch assemble one of these engines was over $10,000, and these tools have no other use. Just the OEM tool to replace your RMS with the latest version is $464 alone.). As this has been dealer practice since the M96/97 was introduced, I would doubt that very few, if any, of their staff could even do it if they wanted to, and also explains why quality aftermarket engine builders are expensive.

Lastly, and again sounding somewhat like a heretic, a lot of dealers are still in denial about IMS failures. After multiple magazine articles on the subject, many dealers still claim that the bearing cannot be changed on the pre '06 engines without splitting the cases, which is anything but true. While there are some dealers that are actually installing LN upgrade kits, many are not, and stick to trying to sell new engines..............