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To my knowledge, there are no limits placed upon the purchaser of their tools, I have also seen them come up for resale online from time to time. You can also obtain similar tooling from aftermarket sources, albeit at a higher price.

I recently saw a just released photo of the Pelican kit, and I have to say that even without pricing being released, I am not impressed. The bearing (there is only one size) is sealed and appears to use spacers to compensate for the different style OEM bearings that were used, which would imply the bearing is the smallest style. I'm rather uneasy about that.

th_Pelican_IMS_kit1.jpg

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This is precisely why the lack of wear data is an issue. Other than the word "ceramic" whay reason is there to think thatt he LNE bearing is better/different/worse than the OEM part? From my reading I

I am doing the labor myself so yes the cost of the part is important to me. If I can pay half of the LN price for the same part and it is just as reliable then that is a no-brainier. My point is tha

My name is Bill Ryan, and I am the owner of Casper Labs, Inc.. Want to say I am pleased to see some very well written posts on the subject of our IMS kit. Let me try to answer your concerns. If s

There's nothing stopping a DIYer from loaning or borrowing a tool kit, it happens frequently on the forums.

In fact, if anyone would like you can borrow mine. However I modified it to extract my LNE bearing. It will no longer extract a stock bearing. :-)

Edited by logray
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Just got this reply from Pelican Parts this morning. I also wanted to thank all of you for the input. It was very helpful.

Darren B has responded to your Message Center request.

-----------------------------------------------

(Darren B) [submitted 16-1-2012-11:12 ]

-----------------------------------------------

Hello,

I just spoke to one of the guys here and regretfully they still do not have a confirmed expect date to when they will be available and included within the website.

Feel free to check back with us, or keep an eye on the catalog for it's arrival.

Kindest regards,

Darren

Pelican Parts

USA & Canada: 888-280-7799 ext 313

International: 310-626-8765 ext 313

Fax: 310-626-8764

www.pelicanparts.com

Thanks for using the Message Center, if you have any further difficulties or are required to respond to your request, please login to the Message Cen

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Man... This post makes me happy that I have Turbo and don't have to think about this. But to chime in I have to agree with the others. Go with what has proven itself... Simple "risk / reward" analysis points to LNE.. :lightbulb:

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My name is Bill Ryan, and I am the owner of Casper Labs, Inc.. Want to say I am pleased to see some very well written posts on the subject of

our IMS kit. Let me try to answer your concerns. If something is missed,..... just bring it up again for a future posting.

My first contact with a ceramic hybrid bearing was in the 1980's. An SKF bearing engineer brought a prototype into Pratt & Whitney (where I worked) for a presentation to the engineering staff. We were told it was the bearing of the future, and the charts of performance improvements bordered on unbelievable (at the time). Back then, cost was also unbelievable. Years would pass before for a microturbine application (over 110,000RPM) would be saved by the many benefits of ceramic balls.

Ball bearings have been around for a long time. There is no magic, mystery, or art to designing bearings for an application. The technolgy is so refined that bearing manufacturers can produce these precision devices in vast numbers, at low cost, and with incredibly low failure rates. The world would be a very different place if this technology was not readily available to everyone. Every bearing company has a staff of application engineers ready to assist designers and engineers with any use of their product.

All Porsche OEM type IMS bearings are sealed grease lubed type. The seals are designed to keep grease in and dirt out. The seals were not designed to sit partially submerged in motor oil (engine off, dip stick full). These bearings run $20-$30 over the counter, and we have seen them go 225,000 miles and still be perfect (except the grease is gone and replaced with oil).

Engine cost was a big design factor when Porsche transitioned to water cooled boxer engines. Not using a pressure lubed IMS bearing set (like the 911) appears to have been one of these decisions to lower cost. While oil lubed open face ball bearings are routinely used in turbine gearboxes and main shafts , they have the benefit of much cleaner oil and targeted oil spray. Combustion byproducts are completely isolated from the turbine's lube system, and individual jets spray gears and bearings. Anybody who has lost their oil separator knows how much blowby exists in these Porsche engines. It is a dirty environment in the crankcase.

Now consider an OEM bearing that has been in service a while. The grease is gone. If the oil level is low (below the bearing), and the car has sat for days or weeks, and the trapped oil has leaked out. Just a tiny trough of oil sits in the bottom of the lower race. When the engine starts, some of the balls are momentarily dry. Lack of lube causes high bearing temp., which causes wear. Each time this happens, it gets a little worse.

Enter ceramics! They need practically no lube in many services, and are far more dirt tolerant than steel balls. Why did't Porsche use them? COST! It would have been cheaper to pressure lube the IMS.

Why don't we guarantee our bearings? Answer: No ball bearing manufacturer on earth does! It is so easy to damage a bearing installing it, that even the finest product can be ruined in an instant with a press, hammer, or dirt. Don't be the first customer in your favorite shop to get the kit. First time mechanics should have a core engine to practice on, removing and installing the orig. bearing. Remember that open face turbine bearings are assembled in a clean room. If your garage is not hospital clean, go someplace else. Powdered clutch disk facing and road dirt have no place in your bearing.

MTBF data? Good quality/properly designed ceramic bearings are so robust (when correctly installed and lubed) that any failure is, in all probability, the result of installation error or contamination. With dozens of mechanics in different locations and using varying proceedures, any meaningful data would most likely tell you which shops to use, and ...........which to avoid. Obviously, we will be tracking this.

Controlling quality is always important, especially in precision products. Our bearing design and quality specs are defined on a Casper Labs

engineering drawing. It is furnished to the bearing manufacturer with the purchase order. Their QC department has to provide a certificate of conformity to the drawing with the finished product as well as any test reports or analysis spec'd'. Casper Labs has internal processes to review and inspect all hardware and documentation upon receipt.

Hope this helped!

BR

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Good and clear explanation with regard to the bearing and his lubrication conditions, the oil level on MAX. and an annual or 15.000 Km oil exchange interval indeed helps a lot, and certainly in combination with a ceramic bearing. Thanks for the valuable input

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My name is Bill Ryan, and I am the owner of Casper Labs, Inc.. Want to say I am pleased to see some very well written posts on the subject of

our IMS kit. Let me try to answer your concerns. If something is missed,..... just bring it up again for a future posting.

My first contact with a ceramic hybrid bearing was in the 1980's. An SKF bearing engineer brought a prototype into Pratt & Whitney (where I worked) for a presentation to the engineering staff. We were told it was the bearing of the future, and the charts of performance improvements bordered on unbelievable (at the time). Back then, cost was also unbelievable. Years would pass before for a microturbine application (over 110,000RPM) would be saved by the many benefits of ceramic balls.

Ball bearings have been around for a long time. There is no magic, mystery, or art to designing bearings for an application. The technolgy is so refined that bearing manufacturers can produce these precision devices in vast numbers, at low cost, and with incredibly low failure rates. The world would be a very different place if this technology was not readily available to everyone. Every bearing company has a staff of application engineers ready to assist designers and engineers with any use of their product.

All Porsche OEM type IMS bearings are sealed grease lubed type. The seals are designed to keep grease in and dirt out. The seals were not designed to sit partially submerged in motor oil (engine off, dip stick full). These bearings run $20-$30 over the counter, and we have seen them go 225,000 miles and still be perfect (except the grease is gone and replaced with oil).

Engine cost was a big design factor when Porsche transitioned to water cooled boxer engines. Not using a pressure lubed IMS bearing set (like the 911) appears to have been one of these decisions to lower cost. While oil lubed open face ball bearings are routinely used in turbine gearboxes and main shafts , they have the benefit of much cleaner oil and targeted oil spray. Combustion byproducts are completely isolated from the turbine's lube system, and individual jets spray gears and bearings. Anybody who has lost their oil separator knows how much blowby exists in these Porsche engines. It is a dirty environment in the crankcase.

Now consider an OEM bearing that has been in service a while. The grease is gone. If the oil level is low (below the bearing), and the car has sat for days or weeks, and the trapped oil has leaked out. Just a tiny trough of oil sits in the bottom of the lower race. When the engine starts, some of the balls are momentarily dry. Lack of lube causes high bearing temp., which causes wear. Each time this happens, it gets a little worse.

Enter ceramics! They need practically no lube in many services, and are far more dirt tolerant than steel balls. Why did't Porsche use them? COST! It would have been cheaper to pressure lube the IMS.

Why don't we guarantee our bearings? Answer: No ball bearing manufacturer on earth does! It is so easy to damage a bearing installing it, that even the finest product can be ruined in an instant with a press, hammer, or dirt. Don't be the first customer in your favorite shop to get the kit. First time mechanics should have a core engine to practice on, removing and installing the orig. bearing. Remember that open face turbine bearings are assembled in a clean room. If your garage is not hospital clean, go someplace else. Powdered clutch disk facing and road dirt have no place in your bearing.

MTBF data? Good quality/properly designed ceramic bearings are so robust (when correctly installed and lubed) that any failure is, in all probability, the result of installation error or contamination. With dozens of mechanics in different locations and using varying proceedures, any meaningful data would most likely tell you which shops to use, and ...........which to avoid. Obviously, we will be tracking this.

Controlling quality is always important, especially in precision products. Our bearing design and quality specs are defined on a Casper Labs

engineering drawing. It is furnished to the bearing manufacturer with the purchase order. Their QC department has to provide a certificate of conformity to the drawing with the finished product as well as any test reports or analysis spec'd'. Casper Labs has internal processes to review and inspect all hardware and documentation upon receipt.

Hope this helped!

BR

What type of cage materials does your bearing use?

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On one level, LNE saying that 3 of the 4 failures were due to improper installation eases my concern, but then again, aircraft manufacturers always attribute crashes to pilot error.

This makes me think that the original IMS bearings installed at the factory failed due to improper "installation". Reason: I have heard that "most" failures happened in low mileage vehicles.....

Hence it opens the possibility to believe there was actually "nothing" wrong with the original bearing, but with it's installation (30.00 dollar bearing)....... BUT we should buy a 620.00 dollar bearing that could also fail due to bad installation........

Oh boy......Where is the popcorn?

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One of the primary reasons LN moved away from the DIY market and began to suggest that this installation is probably best done by professionals is the shear number of ways the IMS retrofit can be screwed up during installation. Both my shop and others can tell you about the teary phone calls we get when someone gets it totally wrong; the list of how many different problems can be created would probably scare most DIY’ers near to death. (My personal favorite in this department was the guy(s) who took out the chain tensioners to get the “bad oil” out of them, and then use the starter to turn the engine over to get it to TDC; and wondered why the engine would not start when they were done, not to mention the "extra" parts they had left over.) Worse yet, professional shops, and in some cases even Porsche dealerships, can and have totally blown the installation. While not rocket science, doing one of these retrofits requires some modicum of automotive knowledge, specific tools, the crucial ability to follow directions, and most of all, patience; which far too many people seem to lack.

The bearing is a press fit into the rear of the shaft; the factory probably receives shafts with the OEM bearing already pressed in by their supplier using industry standard fixtures and hydraulic presses. The variation from one factory shaft to another as the result of how they are assembled is probably too small to even be measured. Field extraction, while simple enough if you get that far without totally botching the disassembly, needs to be followed by the insertion of the chilled LN bearing using the correct tool and method. Cock the bearing a little bit during this step, and you will end up beating the living Hell out of it trying to get it to go in. Then you have to use an extractor to pull it out again, off axis, which stresses the unit yet again. Then try to straighten everything up and beat it in straight this time. So by the time it is installed, both the shaft and the new bearing have seen their own little version of World War II. If a tech with years of experience, on a lift in a well equipped shop can foul one up, what are the odds on two guys using borrowed tools and lying on their backs in the driveway while one holds the flashlight getting it right without issues?

Even very highly qualified technical people can only develop “idiot resistant” approaches to getting something complicated done correctly; “idiot proof” is a total myth. Unfortunately, God for some reason seems to also side with the idiots.

Edited by JFP in PA
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To: JFP in PA

Our production bearings will be shipped with steel ball cages. We have tested two types of steel designs, nylon, and an exotic made of a low density phenolic. The phenolic one is put in a bell jar immersed in Mobil 1. You pull a vacuum on it, and the oil gets sucked into the phenolic. It will wick enough oil for years of dead storage to start-up lube a ceramic hybrid...... even if the sump oil level is below the bearing. These have to be custom CNC machined, and double the bearing cost. If you really want the phenolic cages, we can special order them (2 week delivery).

Why did we pick steel as the baseline? Many reasons, 1) steel cages are fitted more loosely to the balls due to the limitations of forming sheet metal. This gives the consumer the perception of a lack of quality in a precision device. They move around a bit relative to the ball. Does not hurt the bearing, but perception can be a difficult thing to get around. 2) Nylon nests the balls precisely and has slightly better capillary attraction for the oil film between the ball and cage (providing more oil "storage"). 3) If either of these cage materials gets some level of damage, the nylon will not damage the OD race when the hard ball rolls over a piece of it. 4) From a temperature standpoint, steel cages have the highest rating. The phenolic is second highest (about 350F), and nylon the lowest. The highest temperature rated nylons are just too close to this boxer engine's red line coolant temp (remember this engine uses a coolant/oil heat exchanger). We never encountered this problem, but it is too significant to consider production worthy. If this really catches on, we may consider investing in the tooling to mold out of a higher temp plastic, none are available now in this size.

We ship the bearing with a very, very light lube that really lets you feel the rolling action. If anything gets in the bearing during assembly, you will feel it. Once we are certain it is clean, we take a veterinary's large animal syringe (.040" needle) and inject some engine oil supplement to both rows of balls before slipping the support in place. This is where the looser fitting steel cage comes in handy, you can get the needle past the first row of balls.

Billl Ryan

Casper Labs, Inc.

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To: JFP in PA

Our production bearings will be shipped with steel ball cages. We have tested two types of steel designs, nylon, and an exotic made of a low density phenolic. The phenolic one is put in a bell jar immersed in Mobil 1. You pull a vacuum on it, and the oil gets sucked into the phenolic. It will wick enough oil for years of dead storage to start-up lube a ceramic hybrid...... even if the sump oil level is below the bearing. These have to be custom CNC machined, and double the bearing cost. If you really want the phenolic cages, we can special order them (2 week delivery).

Why did we pick steel as the baseline? Many reasons, 1) steel cages are fitted more loosely to the balls due to the limitations of forming sheet metal. This gives the consumer the perception of a lack of quality in a precision device. They move around a bit relative to the ball. Does not hurt the bearing, but perception can be a difficult thing to get around. 2) Nylon nests the balls precisely and has slightly better capillary attraction for the oil film between the ball and cage (providing more oil "storage"). 3) If either of these cage materials gets some level of damage, the nylon will not damage the OD race when the hard ball rolls over a piece of it. 4) From a temperature standpoint, steel cages have the highest rating. The phenolic is second highest (about 350F), and nylon the lowest. The highest temperature rated nylons are just too close to this boxer engine's red line coolant temp (remember this engine uses a coolant/oil heat exchanger). We never encountered this problem, but it is too significant to consider production worthy. If this really catches on, we may consider investing in the tooling to mold out of a higher temp plastic, none are available now in this size.

We ship the bearing with a very, very light lube that really lets you feel the rolling action. If anything gets in the bearing during assembly, you will feel it. Once we are certain it is clean, we take a veterinary's large animal syringe (.040" needle) and inject some engine oil supplement to both rows of balls before slipping the support in place. This is where the looser fitting steel cage comes in handy, you can get the needle past the first row of balls.

Billl Ryan

Casper Labs, Inc.

Thanks.

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LMAO JFP a couple posts up. Cheers and thanks for that!!!!

To clb0099 according to their ebay listing, Casper is developing and nearly ready to release a single row kit (2000/2001 + engines).

To Casper:

How many cars are using this new bearing?

What kind of testing have you done on the cars/bearing?

Thank you for keeping your posts as "factual as possible" and not "as commercial as possible".

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The project started in 2008 with the purchase of a 98 Boxster 2.5L with a slipped sleeve (KS factory Lokasil repair gone bad). While working up a repair to re-sleeve with a Nikasil surface, we got curious about the bearing. We pulled it out in good shape (except oil filled-45K miles), popped the seals off, flushed it, and looked at it as best possible with a microscope. Looked pretty good from what we could see. I then called one of my old contacts in the bearing industry, and asked if he could advise on a government job. Long story, but he asked for the bearing to run thru their lab (which routinely examines failed bearings and competitor's products). This lab has everything you could ask for,.... down to a mass spectrograph that will tell the material make-up down to decimal fractions of trace elements. They pulled the cage, dismantled the bearing, ran the standard tests, and gave us the report. Since we had the seals with NSK markings, we were not surprised that they correctly identified the "Z" type bearing steel NSK uses. This is a standard bearing steel driven to high purity limits. The tolerances and fits were within published limits for bearings of this size class. Nothing unusual for a bearing in service for 10yrs. Basically, a middle quality bearing.

My bearing guy and I then started discussing the failure problem, and the design factors of how it fit in the engine. It did not take but a couple minutes when the grease loss/oil fill stuck out as pretty unusual. Since the engine was apart, it was a simple matter to find the oil level relative to the bearing. We knew we were on the issue when the grease seals were found to be submerged. Now what to do about it. The grease had to go, therefore the seals too. Open ball bearings are rarely used in automotive applications except where clean lube is available (like power steering pumps and rigid rear axles). This steered toward the ceramic's dirt tolerance. Then the lack of targeted (or full time immersion) oil spray was a concern. Again, advantage... ceramics.

So, he built a custom prototype for us, and we were off. The 2.5 Box sat from mid May 2011 to Oct 2011 (with intentionally lowered engine oil) and restarted with no IMS issues. We are only 10 miles from Palm Beach Raceway, so there is no difficulty finding guys who will test your parts if you give them away. We have a half dozen cars spread out over 3+ years driving around with the bearing,.... issue free. The high time unit has 53K miles. The low, about 6K.

I have seen statements that 4000 of the LN's are in service. When I did the business forcast to justify going forward on this, the anticipated sales are 1000 in 5 years.

When your primary business is aircraft engines, there is no room for problems. The feds shut you down when thing go wrong very, very quickly. Reputation is everything.

The internet sends bad news faster than good. You ship junk, you are out of business.

Why did'nt Porsche create a service bulletin to bring in all the engines to fix them? I believe it had to be a business decision. The correct replacement bearing is expensive. If the mechs screw up just 1% of the SB upgrades , there could be hundreds of engines going back to Germany (where would the replacements come from?). Analysis shows it is cheaper to fix the few that fail inside the warranty, than the ones that might outside (it is a bit surprising nobody started a class action suit on this). Engines sold after warranty are good business!

Never forget how long it took Porsche to fix (finally) the 911 cam chain tensioner. Great business model.

Bill Ryan

Casper Labs, Inc.

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The production single row 47MM OD brearing with external snap ring will be avail in less than a month. It uses the same puller (some require a thread adapter, tell us what size nut is on the outside of the support when ordering) and drift as the 2 row bearing.

BR

Casper Labs, Inc.

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I find it interesting that people would be somewhat negative to a company trying to develop a potentially less expensive alternative and to the do it yourself-ers. Some choose to do their own maintenance instead of paying out lots of money to expensive mechanics and because they simply enjoy it. I'm sure most of us have stories about mechanics ripping us off. I know where I live it's tough to find one you can trust. However, I do agree a do it yourself-er shouldn't bite off more than he chew. I had a bad experience with the Porsche dealership with my car. First the mechanic could not figure out what was wrong, turned out to be the torque converter, but all they could suggests was a remanufactured transmission. They were going to cut me a break and only charge me $12,000 for the transmission and labor ( I only paid $17,000 for the car!). I had the torque converter replaced for $2,000. Some break! The Porsche section of the dealership closed about one year ago. I wonder why? Now I didn't know at the time about changing the IMS and Porsche didn't mention it or I could have had it done during the TC fix. I found the torque converter answer to the issue on Renntech and I appreciated the help. I learned from that particular Porsche dealership mechanic that if he didn't get a code from a computer he was lost.

To Bill Ryan at Casper I would suggest a good webpage to get the word out. Also, it appears people would like accurate information on possible failures of your product and most of all success stories. I believe LN does not provide "independent" information but does give their stats on their webpage. I don't doubt for a second that the LN fix is a fine product but I do think it's great you are trying to produce a alternative at a lower cost. I need to replace the IMS bearing on my 99 but I have mixed feelings at this point. I like the price of yours but I am afraid to be one of the first to use it. I think most would feel this way, but I am sure some felt that way about LN in the beginning. What would say to convince me to use your product over LN's. I plan on replacing mine in the next 3 months. I appreciate your response on the issue.

Edited by valley996
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I find it interesting that people would be somewhat negative to a company trying to develop a potentially less expensive alternative and to the do it yourself-ers. Some choose to do their own maintenance instead of paying out lots of money to expensive mechanics and because they simply enjoy it.

No one is trying to specifically be negative towards either DIY'ers or entrepreneurs’ trying to develop alternative products. But there needs to be some level of appreciation, particularly in the case of the IMS retrofit, how this started out versus where it ended up.

When Charles and Jake set out to develop a realistic answer to a problem that Porsche said could not be done, I’m sure they had no idea how convoluted what was basically a good idea would become. Early on, both men went out of their way to try to support people attempting this retrofit, only to find out how all consuming it would become due to the demands it placed upon their time. To be simplistic, there a simply too many ways one of these installs can go wrong due to poor judgement, not product design; and then the phone starts to ring. Pretty soon, you find huge amounts of your time taken up trying to sort out what should not have happened in the first place. I can tell you from practical experience, even independent shops can spend can end up spending way more time talking on the phone about installs they have had nothing to do with, and that is simple not a good use of your time. There are a large number of DIY installs that have gone perfectly smoothly and without any problems; unfortunately, those get lost in the clutter of the smaller number of ones that didn’t.

Secondly, this latest alternative is either the fourth or fifth coming into the market to my knowledge. One or two have been pretty innovative in their approach compared to the OEM design; another took the “low cost provider” route. To date, the first of the “innovators”, while initially very interesting, seemed to quickly die due to unresolved technical problems that left installers and car owners on the hook with some big problems. The second of the “innovators” is still in the early stages, but again appears to be an overly complex design with a lot of things “still to be determined”. There is also a simpler lower cost alternative, but with somewhat of a caveat: Because of the materials of construction and the design of the retrofit unit, it now appears that the suggested replacement intervals for the retrofit bearing may be rather short, perhaps as short as every 36,000 miles, which somewhat puts a dent in the “low cost” concept.

So those of us that live in this space 10-12 hours a day, six days a week, tend to take a “show me” approach towards yet another new product offering, and recommend others take a “wait and see” attitude as well. That doesn’t mean that we believe there is anything intrinsically wrong with the new product, we are just being cautious due to experience……………

Edited by JFP in PA
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Bill -had this product been available last summer I would have purchased it Have you considered other high cost components that need a more cost effective solution such as the variocam actuators ?It would seem these could be a candidate for remanufactuer with proper analysis and engineering .

Last question -what method did you use to fix the Boxster cylinders ? There is a foregone conclusion that cast sleeves are unacceptable ,do you have an opinion ?

Than you

Dave

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I find it interesting that people would be somewhat negative to a company trying to develop a potentially less expensive alternative and to the do it yourself-ers. Some choose to do their own maintenance instead of paying out lots of money to expensive mechanics and because they simply enjoy it.

No one is trying to specifically be negative towards either DIY'ers or entrepreneurs’ trying to develop alternative products. But there needs to be some level of appreciation, particularly in the case of the IMS retrofit, how this started out versus where it ended up.

When Charles and Jake set out to develop a realistic answer to a problem that Porsche said could not be done, I’m sure they had no idea how convoluted what was basically a good idea would become. Early on, both men went out of their way to try to support people attempting this retrofit, only to find out how all consuming it would become due to the demands it placed upon their time. To be simplistic, there a simply too many ways one of these installs can go wrong due to poor judgement, not product design; and then the phone starts to ring. Pretty soon, you find huge amounts of your time taken up trying to sort out what should not have happened in the first place. I can tell you from practical experience, even independent shops can spend can end up spending way more time talking on the phone about installs they have had nothing to do with, and that is simple not a good use of your time. There are a large number of DIY installs that have gone perfectly smoothly and without any problems; unfortunately, those get lost in the clutter of the smaller number of ones that didn’t.

Secondly, this latest alternative is either the fourth or fifth coming into the market to my knowledge. One or two have been pretty innovative in their approach compared to the OEM design; another took the “low cost provider” route. To date, the first of the “innovators”, while initially very interesting, seemed to quickly die due to unresolved technical problems that left installers and car owners on the hook with some big problems. The second of the “innovators” is still in the early stages, but again appears to be an overly complex design with a lot of things “still to be determined”. There is also a simpler lower cost alternative, but with somewhat of a caveat: Because of the materials of construction and the design of the retrofit unit, it now appears that the suggested replacement intervals for the retrofit bearing may be rather short, perhaps as short as every 36,000 miles, which somewhat puts a dent in the “low cost” concept.

So those of us that live in this space 10-12 hours a day, six days a week, tend to take a “show me” approach towards yet another new product offering, and recommend others take a “wait and see” attitude as well. That doesn’t mean that we believe there is anything intrinsically wrong with the new product, we are just being cautious due to experience……………

Nice explanation JFP, thanks for the input. Let's just see if Casper pulls this off.
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