Magnetic drain plug questions

[Johnny-5]

If I was having issues with metal I would be seeing shiny things at the end right? The plug was black That shouldn’t be an issue would it?

 

ill try to upload a picture of the plug later today

Edited April 17, 2021 by Johnny-5

[judgejon]

If you are concerned re IMS issue, get the LN solution installed and forget about it.  Good luck..,

[Johnny-5]

3 hours ago, judgejon said:

If you are concerned re IMS issue, get the LN solution installed and forget about it.  Good luck..,

 

Thats the plan just trying to save up for it. Had a rough last year so trying to get back on my feet. Just trying to keep it running in the meantime. Heres a picture of the plug. 

[JFP in PA]

That looks like a little more than I would expect to see.  If the car was in my shop, I would drop the sump cover and have a good look; if you find a lot more of the same thing, the engine is definitely beyond the point of even thinking about an IMS retrofit.  That kind of grit running around in the oil will kill a replacement IMS bearing that is open to allow oil into it.

[Johnny-5]

3 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

That looks like a little more than I would expect to see.  If the car was in my shop, I would drop the sump cover and have a good look; if you find a lot more of the same thing, the engine is definitely beyond the point of even thinking about an IMS retrofit.  That kind of grit running around in the oil will kill a replacement IMS bearing that is open to allow oil into it.

 

Cars been sitting for about a year and I haven't done an oil change for a while on it as it wasn't really driven. So I figured that was the case?

[JFP in PA]

That has nothing to do with the amount of metal filings on the plug, accumulated metal (particularly ferrous metal) is a bad sign.

[Johnny-5]

13 minutes ago, JFP in PA said:

That has nothing to do with the amount of metal filings on the plug, accumulated metal (particularly ferrous metal) is a bad sign.

 

So that’s metal on that? I cleaned it and didn’t see anything shiny on the white paper towel?

[JFP in PA]

Fine iron filings typically look black in oil.  If you still have any, try magnet on it.

[Johnny-5]

2 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

Fine iron filings typically look black in oil.  If you still have any, try magnet on it.

Ok so I ended up taking the oil in for recycling but I did have the paper towel from yesterday and put a magnetic to it and sure it enough its magnetic. So now my question is Im assuming its the IMS bearing am I correct?

[judgejon]

Yes, and no telling what else is screwed up.  Sorry that you’re in this predicament.  No good answers.

[Silver_TT]

JFP saw these cars every day as a shop owner so I would never question experience......but is that really very much accumulation?  It doesn't seem that bad to me from the picture.  If that were my car I would do an oil analysis though.  Second I would take a picture, like you did, each oil change and monitor it over time.  If you notice an uptick from one oil change to the next that would be cause for alarm.

[judgejon]

Doesn’t that approach risk catastrophic engine failure?  Would it be better to just replace engine?

[Johnny-5]

2 hours ago, judgejon said:

Yes, and no telling what else is screwed up.  Sorry that you’re in this predicament.  No good answers.

 

Im trying to be optimistic here!

 

1 hour ago, Silver_TT said:

JFP saw these cars every day as a shop owner so I would never question experience......but is that really very much accumulation?  It doesn't seem that bad to me from the picture.  If that were my car I would do an oil analysis though.  Second I would take a picture, like you did, each oil change and monitor it over time.  If you notice an uptick from one oil change to the next that would be cause for alarm.

 

I know JFP is very well known here and knows what he's doing. But hell at this point I think everyone on here knows more then me on these cars and is why I keep coming back for more knowledge on these cars! Im just hoping its just the IMS bearing on its way out as Im sure this is the original bearing. Im tempted to get that changed and see where it goes from there. I know that the bearings can have some where and will have some metal in there as well. Unfortunately I recycled the oil and had oil in there previously so thats not an option. I may just drive it a bit and do another drain on a clean pan and send it out. Hopefully that will give me more info if it is the IMS

 

53 minutes ago, judgejon said:

Doesn’t that approach risk catastrophic engine failure?  Would it be better to just replace engine?

 

I'd rather not replace or rebuild it if I don't have too and trying to keep from having a catastrophic failure if it is the IMS. Im still trying to figure out the boxster which had a IMS bearing go out and crack the block on which direction to go with that at the moment so the timing really sucks!

[Silver_TT]

This was the first time you put in the magnetic plug, is that right? First time is probably the worst time.  Not sure about the one you are using but some of them like the LN product are very strong magnets.  I agree with JFP maybe it's a little more than you would like to see but not grossly so IMHO.  An oil analysis from SpeeDiagnostix is probably a good investment of $60.

 

The IMS went out on your Boxster and cracked the engine block?

 

[JFP in PA]

Ferrous debris can come from multiple sources such as the crankshaft, valve springs, cams, and of course the IMS bearing.  Problem is that having ferrous debris running around in the oil is much like having sand in there, it will abrade all the bearing surfaces.

 

The correct move at this juncture is to drop the sump cover; if there is even more inside there, your options are limited, as is the life expectancy of the engine.  You cannot simple try to flush this stuff out, there are far too many places it can collect inside the engine, and it will start to move around over time, slowly tearing things up.  The oil passages in these engines are infamous for being difficult to clean out, even once the engine is disassembled, requiring the use of an ultra sonic engine block bath system to shake it loose.

 

A long time ago, LN set a protocol for inspection prior to doing an IMS retrofit in order to prevent people from throwing good money at a bad situation that is most likely to kill a brand new and expensive IMS bearing; that protocol starts with looking for the presence of metal in the oil, and particularly in the sump before starting the retrofit.  What you saw on the drain plug would be enough to require pulling the sump cover for inspection.  More metal there would disqualify the engine for an update.

[Silver_TT]

Curious your thoughts compared to this thread where Jake says "Turn off the hypersensitivity. You'll always find this on the plug".  There's more debris on the plug of the poster in this thread but I would point out that not shockingly so.

 

Metal particles on magnetic drain plug - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

RENNLIST.COM

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996 Forum - Metal particles on magnetic drain plug - Hi everyone, I did my oil change today and found some metal particles on the drain plug. Nothing in the filter, it was clean with no particles of any sort. I had my IMS changed 3000kms ago. Should I stop using the engine or this...

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Silver_TT

[JFP in PA]

There will always be some ferrous material on a magnetic drain plug, or inside the filter housing when using a Filter Mag; the question is how much is too much.  It is not uncommon for people to panic the first time they change oil after installing a magnetic plug, or in particular the Filter Mag, as the first change will show what has been collecting for the entire life span of the engine before the magnetic field was introduced.  Because the drain plug see way less of the volume of oil that the Filter Mag does, large amounts there are very concerning, which is why I would drop the sump cover next to see what we are dealing with.  Pulling the sump cover is not difficult or expensive, but it will answer the question about what to do next with certainty.

[Silver_TT]

Well said.  Yes I was also thinking it costs nothing to drop the sump as you are saying so I definitely agree.

[judgejon]

Agreed here as well.  If I still owned my C4$ that’s just what I would do. 

[Johnny-5]

14 hours ago, Silver_TT said:

This was the first time you put in the magnetic plug, is that right? First time is probably the worst time.  Not sure about the one you are using but some of them like the LN product are very strong magnets.  I agree with JFP maybe it's a little more than you would like to see but not grossly so IMHO.  An oil analysis from SpeeDiagnostix is probably a good investment of $60.

 

The IMS went out on your Boxster and cracked the engine block?

 

 

This is the first time installing an LN magnetic plug. I was thinking of using blackstone I believe is the company. Is Speediagnostix better?

 

10 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

Ferrous debris can come from multiple sources such as the crankshaft, valve springs, cams, and of course the IMS bearing.  Problem is that having ferrous debris running around in the oil is much like having sand in there, it will abrade all the bearing surfaces.

 

The correct move at this juncture is to drop the sump cover; if there is even more inside there, your options are limited, as is the life expectancy of the engine.  You cannot simple try to flush this stuff out, there are far too many places it can collect inside the engine, and it will start to move around over time, slowly tearing things up.  The oil passages in these engines are infamous for being difficult to clean out, even once the engine is disassembled, requiring the use of an ultra sonic engine block bath system to shake it loose.

 

A long time ago, LN set a protocol for inspection prior to doing an IMS retrofit in order to prevent people from throwing good money at a bad situation that is most likely to kill a brand new and expensive IMS bearing; that protocol starts with looking for the presence of metal in the oil, and particularly in the sump before starting the retrofit.  What you saw on the drain plug would be enough to require pulling the sump cover for inspection.  More metal there would disqualify the engine for an update.

 

Removing the sump doesn't appear to be that hard just afraid of it leaking if I don't seal it right? Whats the proper way to reinstall it? Probably would be a good idea anyways to clean it up.

 

10 hours ago, Silver_TT said:

Curious your thoughts compared to this thread where Jake says "Turn off the hypersensitivity. You'll always find this on the plug".  There's more debris on the plug of the poster in this thread but I would point out that not shockingly so.

 

Metal particles on magnetic drain plug - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums

RENNLIST.COM

---

996 Forum - Metal particles on magnetic drain plug - Hi everyone, I did my oil change today and found some metal particles on the drain plug. Nothing in the filter, it was clean with no particles of any sort. I had my IMS changed 3000kms ago. Should I stop using the engine or this...

 

 

Thats sort of what Im going through as well. I didn't find anything in the filter just on the drain plug itself. I haven't changed the IMS yet and wild was recycled already unfortunately. 

 

10 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

There will always be some ferrous material on a magnetic drain plug, or inside the filter housing when using a Filter Mag; the question is how much is too much.  It is not uncommon for people to panic the first time they change oil after installing a magnetic plug, or in particular the Filter Mag, as the first change will show what has been collecting for the entire life span of the engine before the magnetic field was introduced.  Because the drain plug see way less of the volume of oil that the Filter Mag does, large amounts there are very concerning, which is why I would drop the sump cover next to see what we are dealing with.  Pulling the sump cover is not difficult or expensive, but it will answer the question about what to do next with certainty.

 

JFP when its removed what am I looking for? Is there a way to check the bearing while Im at it? Or is it just to clean it and reseal?

 

10 hours ago, Silver_TT said:

Well said.  Yes I was also thinking it costs nothing to drop the sump as you are saying so I definitely agree.

 

9 hours ago, judgejon said:

Agreed here as well.  If I still owned my C4$ that’s just what I would do. 

 

Thank you both for your opinion as well.

[JFP in PA]

The sump cover is a flat plate with an attached baffle system used to reduce oil slosh.  What you would be looking for is an accumulation of material similar to what was on the drain plug, or any other accumulated material that should not be in there.  When you get it down, take pictures to post here so we can see what you find..  The sump cover is sealed to the engine with a sealant material, there is no gasket.  Reinstallation requires thoroughly cleaning the mating surfaces, applying a thin bead of sealant to the cover, pushing it into place and properly torqueing the bolts.  You cannot see the IMS bearing from below as it sits below the crankshaft, which is housed in its own carrier assembly.

[Silver_TT]

Yes, I recently spent time looking at Blackstone vs SpeeDiagnostix and think the later is the stronger product.  Blackstone makes you pay extra to see the TBN (arguably the most important thing you want to see in the analysis) and even then doesn't show the breakdown just gives you a single number.  To me this is akin to going to the doctor to get a blood test for a critical illness only to have the doctor tell you that if you want them to properly test your blood then you need to pay an extra fee -- seems like they should be doing it in the first place if they are a good doctor.  Anyway, I am actually expecting my oil analysis from SpeeDiagnostix back this week but you can go to their website and see what the report looks like.

 

I think pulling the sump will tell you what you need to know on its own.... but the oil analysis is still something to consider regardless (cheap insurance).

[Johnny-5]

On 4/18/2021 at 7:16 PM, JFP in PA said:

The sump cover is a flat plate with an attached baffle system used to reduce oil slosh.  What you would be looking for is an accumulation of material similar to what was on the drain plug, or any other accumulated material that should not be in there.  When you get it down, take pictures to post here so we can see what you find..  The sump cover is sealed to the engine with a sealant material, there is no gasket.  Reinstallation requires thoroughly cleaning the mating surfaces, applying a thin bead of sealant to the cover, pushing it into place and properly torqueing the bolts.  You cannot see the IMS bearing from below as it sits below the crankshaft, which is housed in its own carrier assembly.

 

Thanks for the info. I may try to get to this by this weekend and will post pictures. Couple of questions...

What type of sealant would you recommend for the plate when reinstalling? 

Whats the torque spec?

 

On 4/18/2021 at 7:49 PM, Silver_TT said:

Yes, I recently spent time looking at Blackstone vs SpeeDiagnostix and think the later is the stronger product.  Blackstone makes you pay extra to see the TBN (arguably the most important thing you want to see in the analysis) and even then doesn't show the breakdown just gives you a single number.  To me this is akin to going to the doctor to get a blood test for a critical illness only to have the doctor tell you that if you want them to properly test your blood then you need to pay an extra fee -- seems like they should be doing it in the first place if they are a good doctor.  Anyway, I am actually expecting my oil analysis from SpeeDiagnostix back this week but you can go to their website and see what the report looks like.

 

I think pulling the sump will tell you what you need to know on its own.... but the oil analysis is still something to consider regardless (cheap insurance).

 

Thank you will look into speediagnostix. The way you explained it was great makes total sense! 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Johnny-5

[JFP in PA]

Use the Loctite 5900 sparingly; excess sealant is usually found clogging the oil pickup.  Cover bolts torqued to 7.5 ft. lbs. ( I would use an inch pound wrench  set to 90 inch pounds, which is much more accurate at low torque values).

 

[Johnny-5]

Oh and by the way off topic question. I did notice some oil leak on the valve covers and is probably due to the spark plug tubes. Does it mater what brand? I found a few places who sale a brand called German. Pelican sales it and its like $5 with seals. Or is it better to stay OEM? Im also going to try out the Denso Iridium's for the plug. So Im going to use dielectric grease for the plugs, a little bit of oil for the seals, and for the plugs i know alot of stating to use sparingly some anti seize and was curious if anyones used Liqui Moly LM508 Anti-Seize or if I should just stay with the permatex silver type? And is the torque spec 18.5 or 22? Im seeing alot of mixed specs. Also any recommendations on good pads? I was thinking of just going with regular pagid pads? 

 

Thanks again