Boxster engine rebuilds

[geoff]

I just saw there is now a US company that says they can rebuild Boxster engines. See http://www.flat6innovations.com/ Some of the 914 guys seem to think they have the expertise. See http://www.boxsterspec.com/index.php?showtopic=993 for some discussion on what they're doing

I have no affiliation with them, but am fascinated technically with what they seem to have done to potentially improve the life of my Boxster when (if) the engine goes south. Thought some others here might be interested. I'll be interested to hear if anyone uses them at some point and what their experience is

[Tool Pants]

I have been following this from Jake Raby, and other companies as well. The Boxster has been around for 11 years. I have been around for 9 of those years. Said a long time ago the Boxster was going to be the next 914, just water cooled and heavier.

I am on 2 message boards run by Brad Roberts, and Brad and others saw this before me. Jake is also on these message boards. You can find 2.5 cars for less than $10,000. If they are in decent shape and the engine runs.

Here is what Jake said 1 1/2 years ago: "When Porsche cuts that program off [Porsche selling rebuilt engines for the older cars] we'll be ready for it with an updated stock engine replacement as well as performance upgrades. The 2.5 cars are already 10 years old and I'll bet that the engine program to support these cars won't be around much longer."

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?show...2696&st=280

Fast foward to today. On Brad's spec message board: "There are only 7 left in the world!!! For those of you who are thinking about it now is the time to order. There were 11 on Friday and 31 at the begining of the month so they are going fast!!!! "

http://www.boxsterspec.com/index.php?showtopic=993

If this is true, then Porsche has ended the production of 2.5 rebuilt engines.

So, the aftermarket steps in to fill the gap, or has already stepped in. Auto Farm and Hartech in England has been doing this for a while. Auto Strasse in Southern California. Now Jake Raby is in the pipeline.

[macsak]

great info, jeff

do you have any reports of people using auto strasse's or jake's rebuilds?

aloha

steve

I have been following this from Jake Raby, and other companies as well. The Boxster has been around for 11 years. I have been around for 9 of those years. Said a long time ago the Boxster was going to be the next 914, just water cooled and heavier.

I am on 2 message boards run by Brad Roberts, and Brad and others saw this before me. You can find 2.5s for less then $10,000. If they are in decent shape and the engine runs.

Here is what Jake said 1 1/2 years ago: "When Porsche cuts that program off [Porsche selling rebuilt engines for the older cars] we'll be ready for it with an updated stock engine replacement as well as performance upgrades. The 2.5 cars are already 10 years old and I'll bet that the engine program to support these cars won't be around much longer."

http://www.914club.com/bbs2/index.php?show...2696&st=280

Fast foward to today. On Brad's spec message board: "There are only 7 left in the world!!! For those of you who are thinking about it now is the time to order. There were 11 on Friday and 31 at the begining of the month so they are going fast!!!! "

http://www.boxsterspec.com/index.php?showtopic=993

If this is true, then Porsche has ended the production of 2.5 rebuilt engines.

So. the aftermarket steps in to fill the gap, or has already stepped in. Auto Farm and Hartech in England has been doing this for a while. Auto Strasse in Southern California. Now Jake Raby.

[JP-"S"]

shameless plug!!!!

I have a 2000 3.2 that has a some leakdown issue that will need new rings to be 100%. The motor has 52000 miles and still runs fine but I am adding a 3.6 to my "mod list". I will be selling my 3.2 for 3500USD. PM me if anyone is interested. I will be taking the car on a 300+ mile trip this week with the 3.2 still in it so yes it does still run good.

[ouroboros]

Could www.986fix.com have anything to do with this sudden injection of confidence? The guy that did it is planning to produce a M96 engine rebuild manual also with workarounds regarding the Porsche hard to source special tools. The vids were very good.

shameless plug!!!!

I have a 2000 3.2 that has a some leakdown issue that will need new rings to be 100%. The motor has 52000 miles and still runs fine but I am adding a 3.6 to my "mod list". I will be selling my 3.2 for 3500USD. PM me if anyone is interested. I will be taking the car on a 300+ mile trip this week with the 3.2 still in it so yes it does still run good.

[geoff]

Could www.986fix.com have anything to do with this sudden injection of confidence? The guy that did it is planning to produce a M96 engine rebuild manual also with workarounds regarding the Porsche hard to source special tools. The vids were very good.

Or maybe it's because the Boxster has been out over 10 years and there are enough out there to finally make rebuilding (and improving) the engines worthwhile? Not to mention the value of the Dollar relative to the Euro these days. In the UK the Porsche new car warranty is only 2 years, and places like AutoFarm have been doing rebuilds for several years already (see http://www.gormanms.com/docs/boxster_motor_myth.pdf which is referenced in the boxsterspec thread in my original post). My take is that Boxsters (and 996s) are getting older, the resale value on older Boxsters is relatively low compared to the cost of a replacement engine (i.e., less affluent Boxster owners than in the past), so the economics are changing to the point where when the engine grenades, you either essentially walk away (dealers offering $3 or 4K for the dead car), put in a Porsche remanufactured engine, or now go with something possibly a bit more robust. Or do what Mr 986fix did and fix it himself. Over 100,000 Boxsters sold and they're all getting older. Look at all the aftermarket engine part and service suppliers for the air cooled 911 motors out there, now that they're no longer in production Porsche cars.

[ouroboros]

No argument with the economics - All I'm saying is there is alot of info in the public domain for people to train with now also.

Or maybe it's because the Boxster has been out over 10 years and there are enough out there to finally make rebuilding (and improving) the engines worthwhile? Not to mention the value of the Dollar relative to the Euro these days. In the UK the Porsche new car warranty is only 2 years, and places like AutoFarm have been doing rebuilds for several years already (see http://www.gormanms.com/docs/boxster_motor_myth.pdf which is referenced in the boxsterspec thread in my original post). My take is that Boxsters (and 996s) are getting older, the resale value on older Boxsters is relatively low compared to the cost of a replacement engine (i.e., less affluent Boxster owners than in the past), so the economics are changing to the point where when the engine grenades, you either essentially walk away (dealers offering $3 or 4K for the dead car), put in a Porsche remanufactured engine, or now go with something possibly a bit more robust. Or do what Mr 986fix did and fix it himself. Over 100,000 Boxsters sold and they're all getting older. Look at all the aftermarket engine part and service suppliers for the air cooled 911 motors out there, now that they're no longer in production Porsche cars.

[silver arrow]

Would love to see more options for repairing Boxster engines, but it doesn't seem to be cost effective. The last time I checked a rebuild on a 914 engine cost $7500 for a basic rebuild and much more for performance builds. How much is a replacement from Porsche again, $8000-9000?

[ouroboros]

Well the last 986fix video quotes the costs at just under 3K for his particular repair - cylinder head machine(I think?) and then whatever else he decided to replace. So the 4.5K would just represent a hell of alot of time/expertise, which is probably fair.

Would love to see more options for repairing Boxster engines, but it doesn't seem to be cost effective. The last time I checked a rebuild on a 914 engine cost $7500 for a basic rebuild and much more for performance builds. How much is a replacement from Porsche again, $8000-9000?

[JP Rodkey]

For anyone faced with a failed engine, there are options depending on the failure. I'm a newbie to Boxsters, but rebuilt several Porsche water cooled engines. I don't think there are clear choices, but choices none the less. My preference would be to rebuild myself, but component parts are expensive for these motors and after machining, new pistons, rings, etal would be ridiculously costly IMO. In my case, the failure was due to overheat resulting in major leakdown in all cylinders. The options seem to be finding a used engine, factory rebuild (if still available?), or the impressive LN Engineering 'Nickies'. If my failure didn't demand a new block, I would probably opt to rebuild. In this case, I've located a very low mileage 2.5 long block for a very reasonable price. Yes, I toyed with "upgrading" to a 2.7 or larger, but the economics presented make the 2.5 my choice. And because of that choice, I now have to decide if I'm going to do a preventative RMS, so there is some risk, but then all replacements carry some degree of risk

[Jake Raby]

Glad to see that you guys have noted our efforts and appreciate what we are doing with the Boxster and 996 engine program.

I certainly don't want to be deemed a "salesman" here, so I will keep specifics off line... All I will say is you will be very happy with the plan we have created for enhancement of the Boxster engine.

I just noticed the thread and decided to pop in to say hello!

Jake Raby

Edited August 26, 2008 by Jake Raby

[Tool Pants]

The M96 motor has been called the disposable engine.

I am on several UK message boards. The way I remember it Autofarm started first, then Hartech.

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/about

http://www.hartech.org/buyers.html

Hartech himself is on the UK message board, Piston Heads.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/

Auto Strarasse in Southern California is now in the business of rebuilding engines. So it has been said.

http://www.strasseauto.com/index.html

I forget where these pictures came from, but I think from Hartech on Piston Heads. It is a 996 3.6.

So, Jake, what do you think happened here?

[silver arrow]

I think it went boom :lol:

[Tool Pants]

It did go"boom."

And here is another. From another UK message board.

And a Raby castle which I think Jake does not own.

http://www.rabycastle.com/

[Jake Raby]

Nope, I don't own the Castle, but when I visited and signed the guest book the lady at the desk looked at me really funny ;-)

I keep seeing the term "rebuild" with the engines and thats what most everyone is doing.. Few are actually addressing the root of the problem and upgrading the components and developing new, non Porsche parts to remedy the issues. The autofarm method is much better than factory, but its still not an ultimate method as part of the original cylinder is retained and another liner is installed. the LN emthod that we have helped develop replaces the entire cylinder and then Nikisil plating is used for a friction surface. This reduces temperatures as well as reducing the friction that typically causes the sleeves to dislodge. With this method employed the case has the same lifespan as an aircooled 911 cylinder, getting started at 200K miles.

The autofarm method still re-uses Pistons and even when the article was written a few years back the price for their upgrade was super expensive, something like 13,000 pounds for a stock engine!

The same goes with IMS and timing chain failures as well as oil pump issues as all of these things are either developed or we are developing them now...

It takes the same amount of labor to R&R the engine, tear it down and assemble it, so why not take the precautions to ensure future problems won't occur while you are at it??

I'd say that 3.6 saw some pretth bad detonation, maybe it was boosted without a CR reduction??? The pistons in these engines are VERY weak!!! A VW type 1 1600cc piston is the same size, but significantly stronger!

Lots of companies and independant repair shops have contacted us about our program already and thats what we want.. Our time is much better spent perfecting performance packages and designing components and procedures rather than assembling stock engines. We'd like to supply tools, parts and knowledge to assist the normal person with the 986 engine rebuild and upgrade..

Tool pants, are those your broken parts?? if so I'd certainly like to study them as part of our research as we are trying to create a data base of failures and components in hopes of establishing trends..

Edited August 27, 2008 by Jake Raby

[JP-"S"]

That looks like a WOT Mis-shift like 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-2nd.

[Jake Raby]

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

[ouroboros]

Hi Guys,

May be a little OT, but have you guys seen the price of the rebuilding at Autofarm.? Okay they are doing the Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block at the same time, and this is UK pricing, but still all options are 11K (US) plus.

I was under the impression that if you exchanged your core, a 03 996 factory recon engines from someone like Sunset are available for 12K US. Wouldn't most people go this route in the event of a situation like the above?

I simply wouldn't spend more than 4K for a rebuild. Say 3K for parts + 1K for labour. Anyone know how many hours it takes to rebuild a M96 engine to see if my labour is fair?

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

[JP-"S"]

Hi Guys,

May be a little OT, but have you guys seen the price of the rebuilding at Autofarm.? Okay they are doing the Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block at the same time, and this is UK pricing, but still all options are 11K (US) plus.

I was under the impression that if you exchanged your core, a 03 996 factory recon engines from someone like Sunset are available for 12K US. Wouldn't most people go this route in the event of a situation like the above?

I simply wouldn't spend more than 4K for a rebuild. Say 3K for parts + 1K for labour. Anyone know how many hours it takes to rebuild a M96 engine to see if my labour is fair?

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

You will NEVER get a motor rebuild with parts for 4K it will be more like 7-8K, the parts are not mass produced like a SB Chevy you can order from Jegs. I personal y would rather have a rebuilt then a new motor since when you rebuid it you improve all the weak points.

[Jake Raby]

A "rebuild" without doing any upgrades would not be smart at all.. While all parts that fail are accessible it only makes sense to address those areas. Doing this will prevent future failures that could occur before the "rebuild" is more than a week old.

We are only offering completely upgraded units for several reasons, the biggest being liability concerning a failure on an engine we had recently "rebuilt".

I am sure as time goes on we'll see some companies with lesser morals completing such "rebuilds" and their reputations will go down the drain fairly early from that...

The issues that these engines have are real and they can occur to any engine, at any time if not addressed thoroughly. Cutting corners and saving pennies is exactly what Porsche did that created these issues!

1K for labor to rebuild a Boxster engine will get you no where, the engine is difficult to assemble and work with in general.

[silver arrow]

Hi Guys,

May be a little OT, but have you guys seen the price of the rebuilding at Autofarm.? Okay they are doing the Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block at the same time, and this is UK pricing, but still all options are 11K (US) plus.

I was under the impression that if you exchanged your core, a 03 996 factory recon engines from someone like Sunset are available for 12K US. Wouldn't most people go this route in the event of a situation like the above?

I simply wouldn't spend more than 4K for a rebuild. Say 3K for parts + 1K for labour. Anyone know how many hours it takes to rebuild a M96 engine to see if my labour is fair?

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

You will NEVER get a motor rebuild with parts for 4K it will be more like 7-8K, the parts are not mass produced like a SB Chevy you can order from Jegs. I personal y would rather have a rebuilt then a new motor since when you rebuid it you improve all the weak points.

That's about what you would pay to have a Subaru WRX engine rebuilt stock. It looks like Raby is coming out with a program to help owners do the rebuilds themselves, so that might be an option for you. Would certainly address the labor cost issue.

[Jake Raby]

Hi Guys,

May be a little OT, but have you guys seen the price of the rebuilding at Autofarm.? Okay they are doing the Silsleeve rebuilt cylinder block at the same time, and this is UK pricing, but still all options are 11K (US) plus.

I was under the impression that if you exchanged your core, a 03 996 factory recon engines from someone like Sunset are available for 12K US. Wouldn't most people go this route in the event of a situation like the above?

I simply wouldn't spend more than 4K for a rebuild. Say 3K for parts + 1K for labour. Anyone know how many hours it takes to rebuild a M96 engine to see if my labour is fair?

Might be, since the rod bolts broke as wel as the beam too, but the crown of the piston looks baked, like it was well done under boost :-)

You will NEVER get a motor rebuild with parts for 4K it will be more like 7-8K, the parts are not mass produced like a SB Chevy you can order from Jegs. I personal y would rather have a rebuilt then a new motor since when you rebuid it you improve all the weak points.

That's about what you would pay to have a Subaru WRX engine rebuilt stock. It looks like Raby is coming out with a program to help owners do the rebuilds themselves, so that might be an option for you. Would certainly address the labor cost issue.

Part of our program will be offering DVDs and components "kits" to assist with repairs that are made by the owner. We will also be hosting 3 day formal training sessions with hands on experience here at our facility for both novices and professionals. These will include a package for machine work to the block and heads as well as upgraded components as an option for those who want to do the work themselves. These will be available for both stock and performance engines.

I have no desire to become a mass rebuilder of the engines in stock form, and do want to assist others in doing this job more easily as labor rates will only increase over time.

I have created very comprehensive engine kit programs for the aircooled engines that have allowed people that don't have a single tool in their garage and ZERO experience to assemble a complete performance engine, saving them as much as 5K for our labor expenses to assemble and Dyno the engine. The Boxster is the next engine to benefit from this program, just as comprehensively as it's aircooled cousins. The best part is the engine "kits" will be proven, so a performance engine will have the fuel MAP sorted and we can even program it for the customer, because we have designed the combination and standardized it so it won't be changed.

Lots of stuff is under way, but right now we are working hard to overcome the reliability issues and learn as much about these engines as possible.

[juniinc]

hosting 3day training,,,

So when is it gonna be?

[Jake Raby]

The first training sessions will begin in Summer 2009.

[Topless]

Jake,

As kind of a marketing guy I envision the 2.5spec, 2.9mod, and 3.6mod to be your top sellers both as a complete motor and as a kit. The turbo versions will probably be more of a specialty item. Just one guys opinion who has marketed and sold a lot of stuff over a very long time. Consider these things while you decide how you will invest your valuable time, energy and $$ in the coming year.