Jump to content

The RennTech.org community is Member supported!  Please consider an ANNUAL donation to help keep this site operating.
Click here to Donate

Welcome to RennTech.org Community, Guest

There are many great features available to you once you register at RennTech.org
You are free to view posts here, but you must log in to reply to existing posts, or to start your own new topic. Like most online communities, there are costs involved to maintain a site like this - so we encourage our members to donate. All donations go to the costs operating and maintaining this site. We prefer that guests take part in our community and we offer a lot in return to those willing to join our corner of the Porsche world. This site is 99 percent member supported (less than 1 percent comes from advertising) - so please consider an annual donation to keep this site running.

Here are some of the features available - once you register at RennTech.org

  • View Classified Ads
  • DIY Tutorials
  • Porsche TSB Listings (limited)
  • VIN Decoder
  • Special Offers
  • OBD II P-Codes
  • Paint Codes
  • Registry
  • Videos System
  • View Reviews
  • and get rid of this welcome message

It takes just a few minutes to register, and it's FREE

Contributing Members also get these additional benefits:
(you become a Contributing Member by donating money to the operation of this site)

  • No ads - advertisements are removed
  • Access the Contributors Only Forum
  • Contributing Members Only Downloads
  • Send attachments with PMs
  • All image/file storage limits are substantially increased for all Contributing Members
  • Option Codes Lookup
  • VIN Option Lookups (limited)

Recommended Posts

post-89070-0-39096400-1378674970_thumb.j

This is the first oil analysis report on my 06 C4S 6sp. I was concerned because the 2nd owner beat the ---- out of the car on the track. This sample was taken with 17,400 miles on the odo when the oil had 3000 miles on it. I started to freak when I saw the Nickel level. But in thinking about it, these cars have Lokasil cylinder liners. NO NICKEL. There may be nickel in some of the bearings alloyed to mostly.. Iron. Notice all the other wear metals including iron are just fine. Harry King from Performance Racing Oils spoke to Millers Oil about it and they said this was most definitely a lab error. What turns out to be the real problem is the fuel dilution!! Now, my office is only 3 miles from my house and I live in New Hampshire with cold Winters. The car does a lot of short cycle driving from cold, running rich, barely getting the oil up to operating temp.

The oxidation has nothing to do with the oil. It is the dissolved fuel. The viscosity is barely within range from the fuel dilution. As the oil becomes progressively diluted it looses viscosity. One wonders if the problem of scored cylinders has it's basis in this problem!! No way is this or any oil going to make it to 10,000 miles under these conditions. A real eye opener.

Check your oil at 3000 miles. If it is OK check it again at 6000 miles. If it is still OK then you are good to go to 10,000 miles under the conditions in which you drive. People who live in warmer climates and do not do short cycle driving will probably be just fine. People like me are going to have to change their oil more frequently or use a higher viscosity to start with.

post-89070-0-57783300-1378676116_thumb.j

Every Porsche should get VIP parking. Anyone guess where this is?

Edited by Mijostyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

White987S

When you say "I love reading UOA's", are you being facetious? To me, I could get this type of report back and not make any sense of it...

I am being serious. I do Blackstone UOA's for my engine oil and trans gear lube. One report give us very little, but over a few years, you can really start to see trends and feedback.

Edited by White987S
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes White, In most cases, with wear metals it is the trends that mater unless you see a pile of wear metals to start with. Usually, if things are going south, you will pick up small amounts of wear metals which over time slowly increase. The percentage of the various metals depends on which bearing or wear surface is deteriorating. In aircraft engines they can tell exactly where the problem is. We have to guess. This lab needs to run more controls on its machines. I will try Blackstone the next time around.

However the fuel dilution is a problem right up front. Another few thousand miles and this oil's viscosity will be below grade. With the M97's habit of scoring cylinders that is the last thing I or any of us want. The usual explanation for cylinder 6 scoring is that it runs hotter than the others and it's oil jet may not be as strong. Those are just the conditions under which you do not want the oil's viscosity to drop. The perfect storm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However the fuel dilution is a problem right up front. Another few thousand miles and this oil's viscosity will be below grade. With the M97's habit of scoring cylinders that is the last thing I or any of us want. The usual explanation for cylinder 6 scoring is that it runs hotter than the others and it's oil jet may not be as strong. Those are just the conditions under which you do not want the oil's viscosity to drop. The perfect storm.

I agree. And it is most likely linked to your driving style. Short distance to the office. Also keep in mind, if you went on a long drive, and burnt off the fuel dilution from the oil, your oil level will drop a little. And you don't want to drop below the min level. So keep an eye on that too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That sample is Millers Nanodrive oil? I just bought 10L of that for my next oil change. Im currently running Royal Purple XPR 10W-40 with AP Nano WS2 additive. I have a 2006 Carrera S daily driver with 86,500 miles. 20 mile daily commute. No smoke on start, change oil every 7000 miles and never have to add oil between changes... ( miss the dipstick too, dont always trust the electrics)

Going to send off an oil sample to Blackstone next week when I change oil. Will post the results when I get them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it is Millers CSF (competition full synthetic) 5W 40. It uses a bit more ZDDP than current Porsche spec calls for which is a good thing. The base stocks are the best quality. However, at $180 an oil change many are going to shy away. If it turns out I have to change the oil every three grand I may shy away. That would be three times a year. I also use their EE 75W 90 Nanodrive gear oil. It is a little stiff when cold but otherwise wonderful. All together the car runs like a top. Very pleased now after a rough start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another option, still not cheap, but if you want the Nano Fullerene advantage that Millers Nano has, but you want an oil that will last longer, is to buy Nano Lub RC-X from AP Nano and add it to whatever oil you run. I'd lay money on the fact that Miller's is buying their nano materials from AP and adding it to their class 5 syn, as AP has a patent on the Tungsten Disulphide Nano Fullerene's that resemble onions and shear off leaving a tribofilm which is also Miller's claim to fame with their Nano Oil.

I've been buying it since before they went to market with it and adding it to Royal Purple XPR.

I read about it while doing some research on aerospace lubrication and found that NASA and the military had been using Tungsten Disulphide lubrication since the 70's in their satellites. It's the slickest substance they know of. Then the Israeli company AP Nano figured out how to take Tungsten Disulphide and create inorganic layered Nano fullerene's / buckeyball's with it. Some very trick stuff. Small enough to easily flow through oil filters and it has some very trick properties of deforming under high heat and load environments and shearing it's onion like layers off thus forming a Tungsten Disulphide nano layer on parts that are often under high friction. (think scored cylinder walls in 996 and 997 engines).

I contacted AP Nano a while back and told them I was a car racing team and that I wanted to try out their product. After some wire transfers and an explanation of how I intended to test it, they sent me some. Since using it I haven't added a single drop of oil to my car in over a year.

Just did my first oil change a few days ago and sent off a sample to Blackstone so when I get the results I'll post them up. I did switch over to Miller's oil this go around after reading some European Racing articles that was about some Touring Car teams that switched over to Miller's because of their Nano additive that had extended their tranny and motor rebuilds to 3 times the norm. It's basically the same stuff I've been running but I figured instead of buying XPR at $19 a liter and Nano Lub RC-X at big $$$$ I'd spend the money on just Miller's Nano Drive and see how it fairs.

After reading your oil sample though I may end up changing oil sooner than I normally do and sending it off to see if my results match yours...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, Millers is getting it's Nano particles from someone else. They do talk about the onion skinning effect so, it may be from AP. I'm sure there is a fair amount of science in the formulation, concentrations etc which is Millers specialty. They started easy with the Gear oils in race cars. They are just starting to get out their street car Nano engine oils. I actually like the formulation of the Race oils better. As long as you do not burn oil the additional ZDDP will not attack your catalysts.

If you think your oil may still be OK you can get a sample by just dropping the oil filter and adding the 1/2 liter back.

My problem was not the oil. It would have been good to go if it was not diluted with fuel. It does not matter what oil I use. Given the same circumstances the same thing will happen. Now, I let the car idle for 5 minutes on start up before driving off. Hopefully this will help. A $600/year oil habit I am definately not fond of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just an FYI, Porsche recommends not letting your car warm up at idle. In fact they say to drive it immediately after starting it just don't go over 3,500 RPM's till it warms up. I've been doing it that way for years and I have no smoke on start up, and car burns zero oil in over 8,000 miles.

Well I got my oil sample back today... Doesn't concern me much and actually gives me some peace of mind. But this is a base line so won't know what's really going on till I can see some trends in the future.

I run a oil additive too which probably accounts for some of the tin and moly. The other high spots appear normal to me for the mileage interval between oil changes.

My having to add zero oil in over a year concerned me a bit and I expected to see maybe some fuel dilution, water or antifreeze, which was causing a false reading on my oil gauge but I guess that's not the case. It's really not burning any oil. Awesome! The viscosity is lower than what they say it should be but I run an additional radiator and a lower temp thermostat and my oil temps never get above 200F so that doesn't bother me too much. The TBN is good and the insolubles % is low. The Zinc and other anti-wear compounds are stellar. Not bad for a higher mileage 3.8.

afce.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is fun!!. Dustin, There is a very important pattern in your sample. Iron, molybdenum and chromium are all high. Anyone here heard of Chromoly steel?? As in piston rings?? Your TBN is too low. Acids eat metal faster than anything. You do not want to run a TBN lower than 3. Your viscocity is also dropping but you do not have any fuel dilution which means your oil is deteriorating. If it were my car I would change oil brands and retest the oil at 5000 miles by dropping the oil filter. If the oil is OK then run it to 8000 miles. Post the results here.

0365kid Why no TBN?? That is perhaps the most important value in an otherwise healthy car. I would quiz Blackstone on this as it should have been done. As with Polaris I am not overly impressed with Blackstones analysis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mijostyn,

just looked at Blackstone's website about TBN, and it was an additional charge for the readout that I did not pay. Didn't know it was critical and not knowing too much about oil, I didn't request it. Maybe next time. Thanks again for the heads up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, TBN stands for total base number and it is an indicator of your oils ability to neutralize acids which are a byproduct of combustion. As your oil ages the TBN will drop. At 3 it is time to change the oil. At 3000 miles my TBN was still above 5. Dustin's oil was below 2 at 8000 miles but different manufacturer's oils will differ depending on the additive package. On TBN alone I should have easily been able to run my oil to 6000 miles. Interestingly, Dustin should probably have changed his oil somewhere around 6000 miles. So much for Porsche's 10,000 mile oil change interval!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, no more 8K oil changes...the TBN showed me that. Funny that Blackstone says anything below 1 is bad. I cut open my oil filter and found zero metal particles. I even ran a magnet through my oil and pulled almost nothing out. I think if piston rings were wearing out, or cylinder liner, etc, that I would have smoke on start and I would be burning oil. I'm not kidding when I say I didn't add a drop of oil in 8,000 miles, so I don't think anything is going on. I did change my oil brand, from Royal Purple XPR (this sample) to Miller's NanoDrive. Will change it at 6K this time and send off a sample. The Moly content doesn't bother me as I run a Tungsten Disulphide Nano additive too which I'm sure has some Moly in it. Yeah, I don't know how Porsche claims to get away with 15K oil changes. Does anybody have a sample of recommended Mobil 1 run to that distance?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The long oil changes are simply to cut oil utilization and maintenance cost. The no warm up deal which all the manufacturers now recommend is to cut fuel utilization. These guys are even doing this worse than stupid stop start deal! All of us know that there is no way this can be good for your car.

Like I said Dustin, I am not overly impressed with either company's analysis. It was Millers who reassured me that the nickel was just a lab error. You are right in that the moly is a multi source metal, the chromium and the iron are not and unfortunately, the three go together. In my profession we say "if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is probably a duck."

Early on with a wear issue you only get microscopic particles which you will never see in your oil filter or on a magnet. This is long before your car will smoke or burn oil. That is why this is mandated by the FAA on all aircraft engines, the point being to pull the engine before it craps out. At Polaris Labs you can order a process called Analytical Ferrography on your next sample. This will tell you exactly what microscopic particles you have in your oil. This way you will know if the moly is an additive or not. I think it costs about $50.

There is certainly no way I'll make it to 8k miles. I'll be lucky to make it to 5. Good luck with the Millers and please let us know how it goes!

Edited by Mijostyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect I am suffering fuel dilution too as my daily drive is only 6 miles each way. I thought I had overfilled with oil so I removed the oil filler cap and left the car idling for 20 minutes or so. It appears the fuel in the oil evaporated off as the level now shows correct as full rather than over full.( and no, no oil sprayed out :eek: )

Whether I should stop using Mobil 1 0-40 and use Castrol Edge 5-40 I don't know. Any opinions on this and where does anyone in the UK recommend for oil testing? :unsure:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I removed the oil filler cap and left the car idling for 20 minutes or so. It appears the fuel in the oil evaporated off as the level now shows correct as full rather than over full.( and no, no oil sprayed out :eek: )

I'm surprised this did not throw a CEL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jl-c, water condensation may boil off because water molecules are polar. Fuel and oil are both non polar hydrocarbons. Once fuel is dissolved in the oil it will not boil off and the drop in viscosity is permanent. If you really want to know what is going on you have to have your oil analyzed. I'm sure there must be a lab in the UK but, you can always use an American lab. Polaris sends you your results online. You just establish an account with them and they will send you sample jars on demand.

In regards to fuel dilution it does not matter what brand of oil you use. The most important characteristics that are attributable to the oil are the TBN and the oil's ability to maintain its viscosity with age. I could not tell you which oil is better that is what the lab is for. Don't guess, know! Test the oil every 3000 miles or so and see what it does.

Edited by Mijostyn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mijostyn, thanks for the advice and making things a bit clearer! Will do as you suggest and if anything comes to light will report back! As you say, knowing is a lot better than guessing :thankyou:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, thank you Mijostyn for posting CFS NT UOA and very interesting comments.

In last three years I graduated from M1, through M1 TDT (UOA link below), Motul X-Cess (which worked very well in my engine, I will post my UOA later when I find it) and Motul 300V 10W-40. This spring I settled on Millers CFS 5W-40 NT. Currently about 6,000 kms on it and so far nothig but excellent experience. The negine is running smooth and quiet. No oil consumption (as opposed to M1). I will post my OUA later this month or in November.

I also changed my transmission fluid from Shell Transaxle 75W-90 to Millers CRX 75W-90 NT. At first I thought that was a bad idea. There was some notchy shifting while cold. After about 250 kms oil bedded in and now it shifts as good as P-approved fluid.

Here is OUA from M1 TDT.

2enxe6x.jpg

Keep in mind that this CI-4+ formula does not exist any more. It was reformualted to CJ-4 around 2010. It also lost a fair amount of Zn and P.

Cheers,

Luke

Edited by luxter
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.