Did my PDK fluid change today

[ciaka]

Edit:  THIS post has updated info about PDK fluid change, how many fluids need changing, what the fluids are, what service intervals, etc.  Go to that post for updated info.  Thanks.

 

 

Did my change today.  Easy but time consuming.  

I thought the old PDK fluid should be clear, maybe a little brownish.  When it came out it was dark.

Any input is appreciated. 

When I drained old fluid out, about 8.5 quarts came out. 

On refill, I put in about 8.8 quarts to fill.

Wonder if anyone can fill me in on what can happen if the PDK fluid is too low, and what can happen if the PDK fluid is overfilled.

Say under or overfilled by half a quart or 1 quart.  Just wondering what the possibilities are.  

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by ciaka

[Loren]

How many miles on the car?

[ciaka]

70k

[Loren]

I think Porsche recommends every 40k. So if the previous owner never changed it...

[ciaka]

The maintenance interval for panamera pdk is 60k km or 40k miles.  You are correct my friend.

However I was looking at the small print and in great detail, and noticed that PDK is not even called upon for a change, unless you are in C markets (not USA), and only for Panamera S hybrid, Panamera S E-hybrid models only, at 54k miles.

So looks to me the PDK interval is not shown due to company not feeling there is a need.  Hmmm.

I will have to go to the actual book in the PTT, to see if there are differences.  

 

I was wondering why info can be gleaned from fluid color.  Someone mentioned should be clear slightly brownish.  This is definitely darker and less clear.  Just wondering.  Thanks for info though.

Edited July 25, 2018 by ciaka

[Loren]

Different markets stress the cars differently and/or may have more restrictive (or less restrictive) laws.

 

I would expect fluid changed (in normal conditions) at the correct interval to be moderately brown but still see-through.

As I said before I suspect your had never been changed before.

[ciaka]

I agree with your thoughts.  Looks like this was the first change.  Glad I did it.  

Now, only thing left is front final drive and I'm set for many miles.

 

Do you maybe know if the front axle carrier (a metal cross brace plate) has to be removed to do the change of diff oil?

Is the plate holding anything in place, or just there as protection for components?  Mean in ng, nothing will crash on my head when I'm down th here removing the brace, to get to the diff drain plug?

[JFP in PA]

5 hours ago, ciaka said:

Now, only thing left is front final drive and I'm set for many miles.

 

 

What about the clutch fluid?  It is supposed to be changed twice for every time the gear box is changed once.

[ciaka]

Panamera PDK has Pentosin FFL3 hydraulic fluid for transmission, as well as well as another fluid for the front final drive, the Shell TF0951.

Those are separate fluids all together.

 

The transmission/hydraulic fluid is for the clutches. 

The front final drive fluid is for the front gearing. 

No other fluids are required for the PDK.

 

 

4 hours ago, JFP in PA said:

 

What about the clutch fluid?  It is supposed to be changed twice for every time the gear box is changed once.

 

[Loren]

AS JFP said the clutch fluid and final drive share the same gear oil (not ATF). As I recall you do need to change the clutch fluid/final twice as often as the ATF transmission fluid.

[ciaka]

Looked up details and thank you for correction. 

 

Looking at the schedules, final drive oil change 12 years or 120k miles for B country market (USA).

ATF oil no changes expected for B market.

 

When I spoke to shop about ATF, was learning that they're ok doing atf oil change at 60k, then atf oil change with pan/filter change at 120k.

They would do front final drive oil change at 60k.  So maybe thats the twice service rate of final drive per each full (with filter and pan) change of atf.

 

What do you say about not changing ATF oil?  I guess that is similar to the Cayenne 'no need to change atf', but all doing the change anyways, since it wont hurt the car.

[JFP in PA]

The PDK requires two different lubricants, one for the wet clutches, the other for the gearbox itself. Both should be changed. As very limited information is available for the PDK, the OEM lubes would be the best choice.

From the manual:

PDK transmission oil - approx. 3.12 quarts / 2.95 liters ATF transmission oil Mobilube  PTX Formula A (SAE 75W-90) GL 4.5 - change at 120K miles or 12 years PDK clutch oil - approx. 5.49 quarts / 5.2 liters Pentosin Gear Oil FFL 3 - change at 60 K miles or 6 years The following procedure is from the 2009 Technik Service information book:Oil filling The correct hydraulic oil level is important for operating the transmission without running into problems. The following preconditions must be met in order to check or correct the oil level:• Engine must be idling• Vehicle must be horizontal in both longitudinal and transverse axis• Hydraulic oil temperature between 86° F. and 104° F. (30° C and 40° C)• Selector-lever position “P”• Clutch cooling volume flow must be switched off (using PIWIS Tester in Oil fill mode)• Retain the described states for approx. 1 minute to allow the oil to settle• Open screw plug on oil overflow bore and collect emerging oil until only drops of oil are emerging• Once there is no more oil emerging, top up the clutch fluid until oil emerges at the oil overflow bore• To avoid damaging the clutches, the procedure must be completed within 5 minutes(PIWIS Tester exits Oil fill mode automatically after 5 minutes)The correct oil level is also important to avoid damaging the gear wheels in the transmission. There is also an overflow bore for this, which is located on the opposite side. The oil level can be checked in the usual way here.

[ciaka]

Are these FSM info and values?  Could it be these are for Panamera (V6), which I believe did not come with PDK?  Other models had PDK standard from what I recall.

The FSM I use states different info for Porsche Panamera 970 - MY 2010-2013.

 

It could be your numbers are for different model of Porsche as I do not see these details anywhere in my FSM.

I see ATF fluid change details and front final drive fluid change details (two separate fluids, both having their own inspect/fill plug, and drain plug).

ATF fluid is FFL3, front final drive fluid is Shell TF0951 (cross referenced it to Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic gear oil 75-W90).

ATF inspect/fill plug is between exhaust pipes (facing towards the rear).  ATF drain plug is at bottom of the pan (black colored, ridged synthetic rectangular structure middle of the car, facing down).

Front final drive fill/inspection plug is on passenger side, facing passenger front wheel, behind the wheel well lining.

Front final drive drain plug is in same area as fill plug, but a little lower and a hex bolt (right next to the front axle shaft to passenger wheel).

 

General process for change appears similar.  With ATF process showing PDK temp of 40 deg C (up to 45 deg C - +5 deg. variance).  

The quantity to use is until it drips out of the fill/inspection hole when at temp, and after working through all gears few times slowly.

 

General process for front differential oil change is level car, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until oil drips out, then close.

 

 

The technical info for V8 engines PDK ATF, front final drive, rear diff, are:

 

Could it be your values are for different displacement/model of Panamera?

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by ciaka

[JFP in PA]

That manual is for the 911/boxster variant, but the transmissionism very similar, with a wet clutch.  The total oil volume is different on your vehicle, but it still has a wet clutch that needs to be serviced more often than the gearbox.

[ciaka]

Good to know.  I was starting to doubt the FSM I have.  No need now.

As to the fluid levels, good to know the  above is from 911.  Yes, Panamera quantities are different (above table shows qty for V8 Panameras).

 

That seems to be a huge difference in gear oil qty between the 911 (showing above at 3.1 quarts), and Panamera V8 flavors gear oil qty at 0.425 L change.

Thought these would be similar if they have very similar PDK.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2018 by ciaka

[JFP in PA]

OK, your data got me wondering why your car used the Pentosin FFL fluid in the gear box, so I just did some research on the ZF PDK variants, and found that your car has an unusual version of the PDK.  From ZF engineering literature:

 

"In fact, two separate DCT ranges or 'platforms' have been developed by ZF, both fitted with wet clutches, for use in Porsche's various longitudinal applications. The first is for use in the mid- and rear-engine sports cars (the 911, the Cayman and the Boxster), while a completely different platform has been developed for use in the larger Panamera. For each platform, two different torque options are available, with the 500N.m versions using an 'ND2015' clutch pack, and the 780N.m versions using an 'ND2216' clutch pack, both supplied by ZF Sachs...…   

 

.....In terms of the oil circuit itself, two completely different approaches have been employed for the two platforms. The 7DT45 and 7DT70 have two oil circuits, and hence two different oils; the first is Pentosin FFL-3 for the clutch and hydraulics, and the second is ExxonMobil Mobilube PTX 75W-90 for the gear-set and bevel gear. The oil levels have been kept as low as possible, to reduce churning losses for those moving parts that are immersed in oil. Conversely, the 7DT75 has a single oil circuit and a dry sump (to minimize churning losses), with an 'active lubrication system' to feed oil to each gear-set and clutch. This version uses only the Pentosin FFL-3 lubricant, which was developed exclusively for the ZF DCTs. One of the main reasons for using a single oil circuit is that clutch cooling is required at both ends of the transmission, for the main dual-clutch module and for the hang-on clutch used in the four-wheel-drive variant. This would have presented significant sealing complications had multiple circuits been chosen."

 

So your model year uses a wet clutch setup that is different from all other PDK's in that it shares the gearbox oil with the clutch, and there is no separate clutch oil circuit in the system, which eliminates the need for the PIWIS during service.

[ciaka]

Great work JFP.  Awesome to have such fellow forum members, who can take the time and help clear up important details.

 

Just to sum up, for sake of having all info in single post, the below details are for PDK on Porsche Panamera models 970, MY2010-2013:

• PDK made by ZF - a unique version of the PDK just for Panamera
  • Uses dual clutch, wet design, uses one fluid compartment for gearbox and clutches, and another fluid compartment for front final drive
  • Gearbox & clutches - fluid used is Pentosin FFL3 - about 9 quarts
  • Front final drive - fluid used is Shell TF0951 - change quantity 0.425 liter (a bit less than half a quart)
    • I was able to cross reference this to Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic gear oil 75-W90
  • Service manual does not state change interval, although service book in car shows every 60k miles (I will do every 60k).

 

 

 

At least the 970 generation of Panamera MY2010-2013, PDK that comes with it has two separate fluid compartments, one for transmission (FFL3), and another for the front final drive (Shell TF0951).  Service manual still calls for PIWIS, but my guess is they used parts of other PDK manual, and having temp at 40C would not hurt the change anyway.

When I was searching details on front final drive, I cross referenced the Shell TF0951 oil, to Mobil Delvac 1 75-W90 synthetic.  

To wrap up, to complete this model Panamera PDK service, you would need:

• FFL3 (about 9 quarts) - while level, drain via drain plug, pour in via inspection plug, run through gears at 40C (may not be required), make sure fluid topped up to fill hole.
• Shell TF0951 or Mobil Delvac 1 gear oil, synthetic 75W-90 (0.42 liter change qty) - while level, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until fluid leaks out fill plug hole.

 

If you have 4 wheel drive, you need to also do rear differential fluid:

• GL-5 rated gear oil 75W-90 - I used Mobil Delvac 1 75W-90 gear oil - change qty  ~1.15 liter - while level, drain via drain plug, fill via fill plug until fluid comes out fill hole.

 

 

Per maintenance schedules in manuals, I see (for USA market only):

• PDK transmission fluid change (FFL3) - service manual does not call for at all
  • I will do change every 60k miles (fluid only), and fluid + pan/filter change every 120k miles
    • Doing so because of info I gathered from other sites/forums, where PDK was analyzed vs used oil, not necessary to replace pan/filter after 60k miles
• Front final drive fluid change (Shell TF0951) - service manual calls for change at 120k miles
  • I will do every 60k miles
• Rear differential fluid change (GL-5 gear oil) - service manual calls for change at 120k miles
  • I will do every 60k miles
• For non USA markets, I would follow the 60k mile/100,000km schedule as service manual calls for similar intervals in non USA markets

 

 

Thank you JFP for your contribution to the information.  I am sure many will find it invaluable in their quest to keep their Panameras running trouble free.

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by ciaka

[Randy Via]

Awesome break down Gentlemen, making it simple and DIY suitable.  Makin' a list !!! 

[SLAM]

the maintenance interval for the 2014-22 Macan PDK is 4 years or 40k miles/60k KM.

 

[ciaka]

I have a diy with 8mages for pdk service on ptt.  I'll try to post up here if didntbyed do.