Debris in oil filter element

[Shrek]

Changed oil and filter and discovered this when inspecting filter element.  2003 Carrera, 54K miles, uses 1 quart every 3000 miles.  Thoughts on possible causes appreciated.

[jimalthoff]

Hi,

You should send this off to get an oil analysis.  They will not only tell you what the particles are but what would cause them.

Jim

[Shrek]

Thanks, I am already in the process of doing that.  Pulled a sample when I did the oil change.  Will mail out tomorrow.

[judgejon]

IMS.  
good luck.

do a deep dive into forum information. 
might be too late. Hope you figure out a better answer. 
 

 

[JFP in PA]

Check one of the specs and see if it can be picked up by a magnet (ferrous), if it does, your IMS is probably on its way out; if the magnet doesn't pick it up, it is an alloy, probably cylinder wall. 

[evoroadster]

Seems to be ferrous.  Most picked up by magnet.  IMSB changed 7 years ago.  Will be dropping oil pan later today and I have sent off for an oil analysis.

[JFP in PA]

An oil analysis is not going to help, ferrous metal is most likely the sign of a major league problem developing.  You need to think about trying to locate the source before something really bad happens.  And even if it is an IMS bearing, you cannot just replace it, the engine will need to come apart, if for no other reason than to clean the metal out of the oil passages. 

[Shrek]

Then its a rebuild, next to impossible in Hawaii, or a replacement.  I will start looking around for replacements.  Anyone have suggestions as to where.  I could ship the car to my brother-in-law in San Diego for repair.

[Shrek]

Then its a rebuild, next to impossible in Hawaii, or a replacement.  I will start looking around for replacements.  Anyone have suggestions as to where.  I could ship the car to my brother-in-law in San Diego for repair.

 

These results were from an oil change when I first got the car.  The oil only had around 1000 miles on it at the time.

 

		MI/HR on Oil		UNIT / LOCATION AVERAGES						UNIVERSAL AVERAGES
		MI/HR on Unit	58,000
		Sample Date	11/5/2021
		Make Up Oil Added	0 qts
		ALUMINUM	3	3						4
		CHROMIUM	0	0						1
		IRON	4	4						9
		COPPER	2	2						7
		LEAD	0	0						2
		TIN	0	0						1
		MOLYBDENUM	57	57						80
		NICKEL	0	0						0
		MANGANESE	0	0						1
		SILVER	0	0						0
		TITANIUM	0	0						1
		POTASSIUM	0	0						3
		BORON	245	245						122
		SILICON	4	4						7
		SODIUM	4	4						9
		CALCIUM	2841	2841						2554
		MAGNESIUM	61	61						96
		PHOSPHORUS	945	945						904
		ZINC	1035	1035						1024
		BARIUM	0	0						0

 

 

 

Values Should Be*

PROPERTIES	SUS Viscosity @ 210°F	67.2
	cSt Viscosity @ 100°C	12.20
	Flashpoint in °F	405	>385
	Fuel %	<0.5	<2.0
	Antifreeze %	0.0	0.0
	Water %	0.0	0.0
	Insolubles %	0.1	<0.6
	TBN
	TAN
	ISO Code

* THIS COLUMN APPLIES ONLY TO THE CURRENT SAMPLE

Edited April 18, 2022 by Shrek

[JFP in PA]

12 minutes ago, Shrek said:

Then its a rebuild, next to impossible in Hawaii, or a replacement.  I will start looking around for replacements.  Anyone have suggestions as to where.  I could ship the car to my brother-in-law in San Diego for repair.

 

You could also get a good engine out of a wreck and install it, which is usually the lowest cost option.

[judgejon]

Sorry you are caught up in this. 
there was a class action suit against Porsche a few years ago Re IMS issues.  Lots of engines replaced for free as I recall. I missed out because I  installed the LME upgrade to minimalise IMS failure potential.

there were shops around that would do an engine swap at a price of course. It’s a Porsche after all. Good luck.  Look around. 

[Shrek]

This is what I found in the oil pan.  All are ferrous.  IMSB failure???  Paperclip is for scale.

[JFP in PA]

Hate to tell you this, but those are a bunch of chewed up small springs, and I have absolutely no idea where they came from. 😵

[Shrek]

I will go over to Rennlist and see what they have to say.

[Silver_TT]

Spring from the valve stem seal?

 

[Shrek]

Good call.  The amount of debris appears to be in line with a valve stem seal vs say a RMS.  

[JFP in PA]

11 hours ago, Silver_TT said:

Spring from the valve stem seal?

 

Look too large to be from the valve stem seals, and several would have had to fail to generate that much debris.

[judgejon]

Seems impossible re all those springs.

has engine been apart?  Did someone dump them into oil pan??? Crazy !

Assume engine frozen?  If not, don’t turn it over, save what you can.  
I have an old oil pump that I changed out of my 3.0 from 911sc.  Yep, sits proudly on workbench. Can only imagine those little spring getting sucked up into that engine. Seems impossible, but often pictures don’t tell the whole story. 

[evoroadster]

Car has been running fine.  Like I said, did some maintenance to the cooling system and changed a dragging starter.  Last task was to change oil and filter.  Found debris in filter element so I decided to drop the pan and there they were.  The RMS was changed by a previous owner 6 or 7 years ago along with the IMSB.

[evoroadster]

Comments on latest oil analysis appreciated:

 

 

[Silver_TT]

Is that Mobil1 15w-50?  13.73 is thin for a 15W50, I agree, especially after such short mileage.  My 0w40 has that viscosity even after 5K OCIs.  Overall nothing jumps out -- wear metals aren't very high but the OCI is very short.

 

p.s. I saw on Rennlist, it looks like the tension spring from the RMS.

[Shrek]

The 1 quart added over that time wasn't 15W/50.  I remember it as 10W/40.  It was all I had at the time.

[Silver_TT]

I see but how did it need a quart top up in 1,662 miles if you said it only burns a quart every 3,000 miles?  Maybe you only added half a quart?

 

Either way, mixing in a lower viscosity oil would explain, at least in part, the thinning of the oil... still seems pretty thin overall given that the majority was 15W/50.

 

FWIW Blackstone's fuel dilution measurement isn't that reliable from what I have seen

[JFP in PA]

What perplexes me is that if this spring remains is from the RMS, why isn't the seal leaking like a sieve? The spring is all that holds the tension of the seal around the crankshaft, without it oil should be all over the place, God knows the seals are prone to leak with the spring still in place.........

[Silver_TT]

Possibly from an old since replaced RMS that someone sloppy drilled holes for the removal screws in then it got chewed up inside the engine... so there is a new RMS in there now with spring intact.  Yes, agree, the RMS was updated but this is still one of the most common leaking points on this engine.