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Jeremy Cottrell

Boxster hard to start after filling with gas

35 posts in this topic

2000 Boxster is very difficult to start after it is filled with fuel. CE light is on and code is P0446. Anybody else experience this problem?

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2000 Boxster is very difficult to start after it is filled with fuel. CE light is on and code is P0446. Anybody else experience this problem?

I have seen problems in the past with the wiring going to the tank pressure sensor being chewed up by rats, causing the Evap canister shutoff valve to not open so as to vent when fueling, usually you would also have a problem fueling the car. The tank pressure sensor is under the battery access plate.

vizcarra44

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Well, the problem isn't putting gas in the car, but not being able to start the car after it has been filled up. I checked fuse E6 anyway, because there may be a connection if you suggested it. The fuse is there, and intact.

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Well, the problem isn't putting gas in the car, but not being able to start the car after it has been filled up. I checked fuse E6 anyway, because there may be a connection if you suggested it. The fuse is there, and intact.

Hi Jeremy Cottrell,

Did you ever fix your problem from Sept 24 2007. I am having the exact same problem you had last year.

Thanks in advance,

Chris Hewett

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This has been exactly my problem on a 2000 986S - code P0446 and difficulty starting the car immediately after fuel fill-up - but it does eventually start when I floor the throttle - then I have to keep the revs above about 2000 for about 1 or 2 minutes or it will die - but then it's just fine until the next fill-up. Weird. SEARCHING hasn't come up with anything definitive, just a lot of people who say try this, try that - including the admonishment to the OP to search and the link to something totally unrelated. It would be very helpful if the few of you that have had this same condition could volunteer the procedure that fixed it. From the experiences that have been related here it looks likely that it's a clogged/saturated charcoal canister, blocked line, or faulty/blocked shut-off valve on the canister - or all three. Once I figure out what has caused this on my car I'll be glad to post the info here so that maybe other owners won't have to go through the expensive process of replacing all suspect parts until the problem is solved.

Oh, and I already know the translation of the P0446 code. But that doesn't actually tell you how to fix the issue, it just steers you in the right direction.

Chris,

Did you replace you E6 fuse?

Edited by kenhurst

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This has been exactly my problem on a 2000 986S - code P0446 and difficulty starting the car immediately after fuel fill-up - but it does eventually start when I floor the throttle - then I have to keep the revs above about 2000 for about 1 or 2 minutes or it will die - but then it's just fine until the next fill-up. Weird. SEARCHING hasn't come up with anything definitive, just a lot of people who say try this, try that - including the admonishment to the OP to search and the link to something totally unrelated. It would be very helpful if the few of you that have had this same condition could volunteer the procedure that fixed it. From the experiences that have been related here it looks likely that it's a clogged/saturated charcoal canister, blocked line, or faulty/blocked shut-off valve on the canister - or all three. Once I figure out what has caused this on my car I'll be glad to post the info here so that maybe other owners won't have to go through the expensive process of replacing all suspect parts until the problem is solved.

Oh, and I already know the translation of the P0446 code. But that doesn't actually tell you how to fix the issue, it just steers you in the right direction.

Chris,

Did you replace you E6 fuse?

P0446 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Function) - Below Lower Limit

post-1-1233537797_thumb.png

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are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

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This has been exactly my problem on a 2000 986S - code P0446 and difficulty starting the car immediately after fuel fill-up - but it does eventually start when I floor the throttle - then I have to keep the revs above about 2000 for about 1 or 2 minutes or it will die - but then it's just fine until the next fill-up. Weird. SEARCHING hasn't come up with anything definitive, just a lot of people who say try this, try that - including the admonishment to the OP to search and the link to something totally unrelated. It would be very helpful if the few of you that have had this same condition could volunteer the procedure that fixed it. From the experiences that have been related here it looks likely that it's a clogged/saturated charcoal canister, blocked line, or faulty/blocked shut-off valve on the canister - or all three. Once I figure out what has caused this on my car I'll be glad to post the info here so that maybe other owners won't have to go through the expensive process of replacing all suspect parts until the problem is solved.

Oh, and I already know the translation of the P0446 code. But that doesn't actually tell you how to fix the issue, it just steers you in the right direction.

Chris,

Did you replace you E6 fuse?

P0446 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Function) - Below Lower Limit

post-1-1233537797_thumb.png

Thanks for the diagram Loren - but I suppose this would mean that there is not chance that the shut-off valve itself is faulty? I think I'm at the point now where I strongly suspect the canister is saturated and/or the shut-off valve has failed - it would be great if I didn't have to replace both to find out. And it could be a blocked purge air line which I will check while I'm at it.

I think it was you that posted some really helpful photos on that area including how to remove the canister, etc.

Ken

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This has been exactly my problem on a 2000 986S - code P0446 and difficulty starting the car immediately after fuel fill-up - but it does eventually start when I floor the throttle - then I have to keep the revs above about 2000 for about 1 or 2 minutes or it will die - but then it's just fine until the next fill-up. Weird. SEARCHING hasn't come up with anything definitive, just a lot of people who say try this, try that - including the admonishment to the OP to search and the link to something totally unrelated. It would be very helpful if the few of you that have had this same condition could volunteer the procedure that fixed it. From the experiences that have been related here it looks likely that it's a clogged/saturated charcoal canister, blocked line, or faulty/blocked shut-off valve on the canister - or all three. Once I figure out what has caused this on my car I'll be glad to post the info here so that maybe other owners won't have to go through the expensive process of replacing all suspect parts until the problem is solved.

Oh, and I already know the translation of the P0446 code. But that doesn't actually tell you how to fix the issue, it just steers you in the right direction.

Chris,

Did you replace you E6 fuse?

P0446 EVAP Canister Shutoff Valve (Function) - Below Lower Limit

post-1-1233537797_thumb.png

Thanks for the diagram Loren - but I suppose this would mean that there is not chance that the shut-off valve itself is faulty? I think I'm at the point now where I strongly suspect the canister is saturated and/or the shut-off valve has failed - it would be great if I didn't have to replace both to find out. And it could be a blocked purge air line which I will check while I'm at it.

I think it was you that posted some really helpful photos on that area including how to remove the canister, etc.

Ken

There are photos for removing the fuel canister in the Replacing the Gas/Fuel Door Actuator DIY.

Chances are it is a blocked purge line or bad purge valve.

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Is the fuel cap tight?

Does it need to be replaced.

Does anyone remember a recall on fuel filler caps?

I know my 911 will not run with the cap off as the system needs to be sealed.

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Is the fuel cap tight?

Does it need to be replaced.

Does anyone remember a recall on fuel filler caps?

I know my 911 will not run with the cap off as the system needs to be sealed.

When I visited my dealer for a demo of the new PDK tranny and the DFI engine, they offered to go over my '97 Boxster (business has dropped off for them).

The tech mentioned that there had been a recall on fuel filler caps and that mine had not been replaced. FWIW, I have never experienced any fuel filler cap-related problems.

Regards, Maurice.

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Is the fuel cap tight?

Does it need to be replaced.

Does anyone remember a recall on fuel filler caps?

I know my 911 will not run with the cap off as the system needs to be sealed.

A loose fuel cap or bad o-ring will give a different fault code.

Yes there was a US recall for older cars for gas cap issues - this would still give a different fault code.

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are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

I'm pulling the fuel nozzle out as soon as the pump shuts off and being careful not to overfill. However, it's possible that previous prolonged overfilling could be the reason for a saturated charcoal canister.

My gas cap checks out OK when the inspection station tests it (Texas procedure).

I'll be digging into it myself soon and I'll report back whatever I find.

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Problem Resolved!! Finally!

For me all that was required was to replace the charcoal canister. Although it's possible that there could be some other problem causing an error code P0446 AND the related starting issue that I have experienced (see above), I strongly suspect that charcoal canister replacement is the fix for this relatively rare combination of symptoms. While I was in that area of the car to replace the canister I checked the two valves, shut-off valve and vacuum control valve, mounted together in a housing forward of the canister. Some other Boxsters evidently have these valves mounted on the canister itself (as per the diagrams in my Bentley manual) but on my car they're connected to the canister and other components by hoses running from that housing. It's a simple thing to remove it and take the valves out and test them by applying 12v to their connectors to see if they're functional - I used temporary leads from my car battery for this test. For me the biggest headache with this job is getting the wheel well liner connectors and those pesky hose connectors going into the canister loose. Lots of pinching and pulling in the right places and they finally came loose.

I bought the carbon/charcoal canister from Boardwalk Porsche in Plano, TX for $201.40.

So 155 miles after disconnecting the battery and resetting the computer, the codes were gone (I also had a P1128, P1130, P0507 showing which from research here and elsewhere appears to indicate a bad MAF sensor - so I took it out and cleaned it with CRC Electronic Cleaner) and I finally passed my state's (TX) inspection.

I didn't take pics of this procedure but I was greatly aided by the photos Loren posted in this thread: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13955 although the hoses, etc. going into my canister are routed a bit differently on my car (2000 Boxster S). If you're planning to work on this yourself I would also recommend going to the Boardwalk Porsche website and downloading the parts catalog for your car - the diagrams are helpful. You can find their online catalogs at http://login.dealerskins.com/SiteSpecific/...frameset_en.htm. I'm not personally connected with Boardwalk Porsche in any way - they've just been exceptionally helpful and their part prices have been very competitive.

Ken

are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

I'm pulling the fuel nozzle out as soon as the pump shuts off and being careful not to overfill. However, it's possible that previous prolonged overfilling could be the reason for a saturated charcoal canister.

My gas cap checks out OK when the inspection station tests it (Texas procedure).

I'll be digging into it myself soon and I'll report back whatever I find.

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Problem Resolved!! Finally!

For me all that was required was to replace the charcoal canister. Although it's possible that there could be some other problem causing an error code P0446 AND the related starting issue that I have experienced (see above), I strongly suspect that charcoal canister replacement is the fix for this relatively rare combination of symptoms. While I was in that area of the car to replace the canister I checked the two valves, shut-off valve and vacuum control valve, mounted together in a housing forward of the canister. Some other Boxsters evidently have these valves mounted on the canister itself (as per the diagrams in my Bentley manual) but on my car they're connected to the canister and other components by hoses running from that housing. It's a simple thing to remove it and take the valves out and test them by applying 12v to their connectors to see if they're functional - I used temporary leads from my car battery for this test. For me the biggest headache with this job is getting the wheel well liner connectors and those pesky hose connectors going into the canister loose. Lots of pinching and pulling in the right places and they finally came loose.

I bought the carbon/charcoal canister from Boardwalk Porsche in Plano, TX for $201.40.

So 155 miles after disconnecting the battery and resetting the computer, the codes were gone (I also had a P1128, P1130, P0507 showing which from research here and elsewhere appears to indicate a bad MAF sensor - so I took it out and cleaned it with CRC Electronic Cleaner) and I finally passed my state's (TX) inspection.

I didn't take pics of this procedure but I was greatly aided by the photos Loren posted in this thread: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13955 although the hoses, etc. going into my canister are routed a bit differently on my car (2000 Boxster S). If you're planning to work on this yourself I would also recommend going to the Boardwalk Porsche website and downloading the parts catalog for your car - the diagrams are helpful. You can find their online catalogs at http://login.dealerskins.com/SiteSpecific/...frameset_en.htm. I'm not personally connected with Boardwalk Porsche in any way - they've just been exceptionally helpful and their part prices have been very competitive.

Ken

are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

I'm pulling the fuel nozzle out as soon as the pump shuts off and being careful not to overfill. However, it's possible that previous prolonged overfilling could be the reason for a saturated charcoal canister.

My gas cap checks out OK when the inspection station tests it (Texas procedure).

I'll be digging into it myself soon and I'll report back whatever I find.

Got same problem -- trying to figure out what part to purchase.

Is this the same part as I found on Pelican 993-201-221-01-OEM for $75.50?

Listed as Activated Charcoal Canister for Tank Ventilation?

Pelican Charcoal Cannister

thanks,

mike

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Problem Resolved!! Finally!

For me all that was required was to replace the charcoal canister. Although it's possible that there could be some other problem causing an error code P0446 AND the related starting issue that I have experienced (see above), I strongly suspect that charcoal canister replacement is the fix for this relatively rare combination of symptoms. While I was in that area of the car to replace the canister I checked the two valves, shut-off valve and vacuum control valve, mounted together in a housing forward of the canister. Some other Boxsters evidently have these valves mounted on the canister itself (as per the diagrams in my Bentley manual) but on my car they're connected to the canister and other components by hoses running from that housing. It's a simple thing to remove it and take the valves out and test them by applying 12v to their connectors to see if they're functional - I used temporary leads from my car battery for this test. For me the biggest headache with this job is getting the wheel well liner connectors and those pesky hose connectors going into the canister loose. Lots of pinching and pulling in the right places and they finally came loose.

I bought the carbon/charcoal canister from Boardwalk Porsche in Plano, TX for $201.40.

So 155 miles after disconnecting the battery and resetting the computer, the codes were gone (I also had a P1128, P1130, P0507 showing which from research here and elsewhere appears to indicate a bad MAF sensor - so I took it out and cleaned it with CRC Electronic Cleaner) and I finally passed my state's (TX) inspection.

I didn't take pics of this procedure but I was greatly aided by the photos Loren posted in this thread: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13955 although the hoses, etc. going into my canister are routed a bit differently on my car (2000 Boxster S). If you're planning to work on this yourself I would also recommend going to the Boardwalk Porsche website and downloading the parts catalog for your car - the diagrams are helpful. You can find their online catalogs at http://login.dealerskins.com/SiteSpecific/...frameset_en.htm. I'm not personally connected with Boardwalk Porsche in any way - they've just been exceptionally helpful and their part prices have been very competitive.

Ken

are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

I'm pulling the fuel nozzle out as soon as the pump shuts off and being careful not to overfill. However, it's possible that previous prolonged overfilling could be the reason for a saturated charcoal canister.

My gas cap checks out OK when the inspection station tests it (Texas procedure).

I'll be digging into it myself soon and I'll report back whatever I find.

Got same problem -- trying to figure out what part to purchase.

Is this the same part as I found on Pelican 993-201-221-01-OEM for $75.50?

Listed as Activated Charcoal Canister for Tank Ventilation?

Pelican Charcoal Cannister

thanks,

mike

Hi Mike - I'm assuming you need the canister for a 911 or 944 - and it looks like this part is basically the same however it's appearance is completely different from the charcoal canister I needed for my 2000 Boxster S. I went to Boardwalk Porsche in Dallas to get mine. You might want to have them check their parts catalog for a part number for your car and see if it matches the Pelican Part number.

I will say this - the new canister solved the problem up until just this past fall - sometime around Sept. or Oct. the problem returned! So obviously I haven't found the complete answer to this problem - only a partial answer. My guess is that some other part - maybe a valve, purge or other - is causing the canister to fill up quickly - this is assuming that the return of the problem is in part because of the new charcoal canister getting clogged again.

I had my car in to the dealer (Boardwalk) for some other repairs - insurance claim - and they checked over this issue but couldn't immediately point to one single known part or failure. They would have to spend considerable time testing, etc. to find the cause. I can't afford this kind of work from a dealer or even from an independent so I'm just going to have to keep plugging at it myself until it's resolved. Besides it kinda fun to finally figure out the mystery. Well, OK, not always that much fun - more fun to drive than fix.

Good luck with figuring out your car issues!

Ken

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Problem Resolved!! Finally!

For me all that was required was to replace the charcoal canister. Although it's possible that there could be some other problem causing an error code P0446 AND the related starting issue that I have experienced (see above), I strongly suspect that charcoal canister replacement is the fix for this relatively rare combination of symptoms. While I was in that area of the car to replace the canister I checked the two valves, shut-off valve and vacuum control valve, mounted together in a housing forward of the canister. Some other Boxsters evidently have these valves mounted on the canister itself (as per the diagrams in my Bentley manual) but on my car they're connected to the canister and other components by hoses running from that housing. It's a simple thing to remove it and take the valves out and test them by applying 12v to their connectors to see if they're functional - I used temporary leads from my car battery for this test. For me the biggest headache with this job is getting the wheel well liner connectors and those pesky hose connectors going into the canister loose. Lots of pinching and pulling in the right places and they finally came loose.

I bought the carbon/charcoal canister from Boardwalk Porsche in Plano, TX for $201.40.

So 155 miles after disconnecting the battery and resetting the computer, the codes were gone (I also had a P1128, P1130, P0507 showing which from research here and elsewhere appears to indicate a bad MAF sensor - so I took it out and cleaned it with CRC Electronic Cleaner) and I finally passed my state's (TX) inspection.

I didn't take pics of this procedure but I was greatly aided by the photos Loren posted in this thread: http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=13955 although the hoses, etc. going into my canister are routed a bit differently on my car (2000 Boxster S). If you're planning to work on this yourself I would also recommend going to the Boardwalk Porsche website and downloading the parts catalog for your car - the diagrams are helpful. You can find their online catalogs at http://login.dealerskins.com/SiteSpecific/...frameset_en.htm. I'm not personally connected with Boardwalk Porsche in any way - they've just been exceptionally helpful and their part prices have been very competitive.

Ken

are you guys "topping off" the tank? in other words are you stopping felling when the pump clicks off or trying to pack more fuel in?

this will get fuel in the evap system and cause problems

I'm pulling the fuel nozzle out as soon as the pump shuts off and being careful not to overfill. However, it's possible that previous prolonged overfilling could be the reason for a saturated charcoal canister.

My gas cap checks out OK when the inspection station tests it (Texas procedure).

I'll be digging into it myself soon and I'll report back whatever I find.

Got same problem -- trying to figure out what part to purchase.

Is this the same part as I found on Pelican 993-201-221-01-OEM for $75.50?

Listed as Activated Charcoal Canister for Tank Ventilation?

Pelican Charcoal Cannister

thanks,

mike

Hi Mike - I'm assuming you need the canister for a 911 or 944 - and it looks like this part is basically the same however it's appearance is completely different from the charcoal canister I needed for my 2000 Boxster S. I went to Boardwalk Porsche in Dallas to get mine. You might want to have them check their parts catalog for a part number for your car and see if it matches the Pelican Part number.

I will say this - the new canister solved the problem up until just this past fall - sometime around Sept. or Oct. the problem returned! So obviously I haven't found the complete answer to this problem - only a partial answer. My guess is that some other part - maybe a valve, purge or other - is causing the canister to fill up quickly - this is assuming that the return of the problem is in part because of the new charcoal canister getting clogged again.

I had my car in to the dealer (Boardwalk) for some other repairs - insurance claim - and they checked over this issue but couldn't immediately point to one single known part or failure. They would have to spend considerable time testing, etc. to find the cause. I can't afford this kind of work from a dealer or even from an independent so I'm just going to have to keep plugging at it myself until it's resolved. Besides it kinda fun to finally figure out the mystery. Well, OK, not always that much fun - more fun to drive than fix.

Good luck with figuring out your car issues!

Ken

Yeah I'm thinking that Pelican is wrong on this one.

I see you tested the valves... Is there a way to test the canister? Purge it?

$200 every 6 months sounds pricey!

Wonder if the change to ethanol in the Fall had anything to do with it?

I'm got a quote into Sunset to see how much it runs there.

thx,

Mike

Edited by txhokie4life

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Amazingly passed inspection today -- but CEL came back on while driving home.

Pulled my Durametric out and captured the code

P0446 fault code 95 Shut off valve activated

charcoal filter(function)

I also noted with the Duramatic you can turn on/off several engine functions using the Drive Links

I was able to hear the shut off canister valve activate on and off.

However the other valve, the purge control valve, made

no sound at all -- So I'm not sure if the duramatic was unable to control

this -- or that it indeed was bad and did not respond.

I'll have to pull the purge control valve and check it -- hopefully this weekend.

Mike

Edited by txhokie4life

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Amazingly passed inspection today -- but CEL came back on while driving home.

Pulled my Durametric out and captured the code

P0446 fault code 95 Shut off valve activated

charcoal filter(function)

I also noted with the Duramatic you can turn on/off several engine functions using the Drive Links

I was able to hear the shut off canister valve activate on and off.

However the other valve, the purge control valve, made

no sound at all -- So I'm not sure if the duramatic was unable to control

this -- or that it indeed was bad and did not respond.

I'll have to pull the purge control valve and check it -- hopefully this weekend.

Mike

Cool. Sounds like that Durametric may be getting to the heart of the matter. Let me know if it ends up being your purge valve. That's the valve that near the engine (at least it is on a Boxster I think), right?

Oh, and maybe I should bring my car to your inspection station. Guess I can't do that though.

Sure hope it ends up being a simple fix.

Ken

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I had the same problem you describe. I ended up replacing the shut off valve (part number 996-605-201-01) and the charcoal canister (996-201-221-07).

I did not do the work, so I cannot discuss the procedure. My wife bought a used Durametric for me as a Christmas present. I'm hoping I will be able to diagnose and repair future problems of this type myself.

Good luck, I know this is an irritating problem. I still hold my breath every time I start the car after refueling and it has been two years since the repair.

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Amazingly passed inspection today -- but CEL came back on while driving home.

Pulled my Durametric out and captured the code

P0446 fault code 95 Shut off valve activated

charcoal filter(function)

I also noted with the Duramatic you can turn on/off several engine functions using the Drive Links

I was able to hear the shut off canister valve activate on and off.

However the other valve, the purge control valve, made

no sound at all -- So I'm not sure if the duramatic was unable to control

this -- or that it indeed was bad and did not respond.

I'll have to pull the purge control valve and check it -- hopefully this weekend.

Mike

Cool. Sounds like that Durametric may be getting to the heart of the matter. Let me know if it ends up being your purge valve. That's the valve that near the engine (at least it is on a Boxster I think), right?

Oh, and maybe I should bring my car to your inspection station. Guess I can't do that though.

Sure hope it ends up being a simple fix.

Ken

I thought both of the valves were by the canister but my Porsche repair manual hasn't been too handy on this one.

I think I found it in the OBD-II manual: I've tried to attach a pdf of the page.

Purge Valve (#7) is right next to the canister.

mike

986_DME_5.2_OBDII.pdf.pdf

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Replace the carbon canister and purge valve this morning.

took a leisurely 2.5 hours. Since this was my first time, I think I could have cut 30-60 minutes off the time

if I had to do it again.

Took a little while to find the purge valve. It is tucked up under the wheel well -- a little towards the top ~12:30-1 o-clock position.

I took a couple pix to help the next person....

BTW, getting the purge valve out and pack in was a little tough -- its in there pretty good.

Once I got it out, took a little bit to get the new one back in -- a little oil on the o-rings

made a huge difference.

Mike

post-34429-126799361311_thumb.jpg

Edited by txhokie4life

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Replace the carbon canister and purge valve this morning.

took a leisurely 2.5 hours. Since this was my first time, I think I could have cut 30-60 minutes off the time

if I had to do it again.

Took a little while to find the purge valve. It is tucked up under the wheel well -- a little towards the top ~12:30-1 o-clock position.

I took a couple pix to help the next person....

BTW, getting the purge valve out and pack in was a little tough -- its in there pretty good.

Once I got it out, took a little bit to get the new one back in -- a little oil on the o-rings

made a huge difference.

Mike

Well it is back -- same P0446.

I'm also getting P1128, P1130, and P1117 -- not sure if they are related. (I was getting them before)

I replaced the canister and purge valve.

This is my sister-in-laws car -- hard to start today after many errands -- finally had to rescue her with a jump.

got back pulled the codes -- it started right up several times -- one time it did hunt idle -- and dropped to about 400rpm.

let it hunt for a bit and then gave it some gas -- then it seemed fine.

i ran duramatic -- could not hear purge valve come on -- went home and checked on my boxster -- sound is

very feighnt -- so it might have -- I'll have to try again now that I know what I am listening for.

took the old valve and tested it with 12v -- seemed to work fine.

worst thing in the world is sister-in-law with no hubby with an unreliable car.

next steps?

check purge valve operation

check purge valve voltage

I didn't have compressed air when I did the evap/purge valve replacement -- will blow out lines.

???

maybe p1128, p1130, and P1117 unrelated -- not sure.

any suggestions welcome.

thx,

mike

Edited by txhokie4life

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