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Mijostyn

The New Benchmark

Recommended Posts

Hi All,

I assume everyone has seen the reviews and maybe even seen the car as most Porsche dealers have received at least one. Mine will be delivered in May.

I got the chance to sit in a Silver/red+black S and play around with the controls, deploy the spoilers and listen to the Burmester system with a DVD surround copy of Dark Side of the Moon.
As it was already spoken for, I did not get a chance to drive it.
The car is visually quite large for a 911. That big rear dominates the picture. I do not think Silver is the best color for it. It just does not pop. The front chin spoiler is very cool. The front has a nice aggressive stance with the spoiler deployed. Fit and finish are excellent. The paint has some orange peal, status quo for modern paint. Not a show car finish. The wheels are beautiful, maybe the nicest Porsche has ever made. The brakes complete the visual picture.
The two tone red/black interior is very nice. It would go best with a white exterior. That would POP! The Burmester system is handily the best stock car audio system I have heard to date, a hair better than the B+O system Audi uses.

IMHO I think White with this interior, red/black and black/black are the best colors for this car. Overall I prefer the look of the GT3. The Turbo is a little too sedate. Maybe they will offer some aero options in the future. Certainly the Turbo is much more practical in daily driving. Having the AeroKit on my C4S, I can testify that the nose on the GT3 is a pain in the neck. There is no way you can avoid scraping the chin spoiler. I keep a spare on hand. When the spoiler gets ratty enough I put a new one on. The Turbo S is faster and has a suspension more suited to public roads. I will defer comments on the steering until after I have driven the car. The steering on two 991 C2Ses that I drove was accurate, nicely weighted and lifeless. I like a steering wheel that talks to me like my old 993 TT and the 997 C4S that I drive currently. Comments in the press have been positive so far. You have more flexibilty when ordering the Turbo as options are limited with the GT3. The cars are aimed at different customers and appropriately so. I hardly ever go to the track and when I do go, like next Summer down in Alabama, Porsche supplies the cars. I went to the Winter Driving Event at Sugarbush, Vermont and Porsche supplied us with 4 new C4Ses which we got to spin around in the snow for about 20 minutes. Not worth traveling too far for unless you also ski.

So, everyone belly up and tell us what you think. The public opinion is very important with these cars as in the end this is what determines their value.

Edited by Mijostyn

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I had an opportunity to put in a little seat time in one of the new Turbos today (demo unit at a local dealer). Overall, a very impressive ride; the car seems to have a more poised balance than a two year old Turbo cab that I had out a year or so back. The PCCB brakes are, well, the PCCB brakes; hit 'em hard enough at speed and you will find yourself hanging in the shoulder harness and slowing down too early for the next turn in. As others have noted, the new steering is a bit dead, but that is unfortunately common to most electric systems. As the weather is brutally cold (10F) here at the moment, the summer tires were not at all happy about what was going on, but they still showed reasonable quality grip even in the winter cold, probably a testament to the four wheel drive, but I would not really push them hard for obvious reasons. With each experience, I am becoming more taken with the PDK, particularly when a car like this is at full boil; shift points tend to come at you pretty fast and the paddles help you keep focus on what is in front of you. The power pours on fairly smoothly from almost any RPM range, but if you have the car north of about 3-4 K RPM's in first and mash it, you had better have a good grip on something, its reputation for being the fastest accelerating Turbo yet is well earned.

On the down side, I was a little disappointed to find out that the true dry sump oiling system of the Mezger style engine's is gone from these 9A1 variant equipped cars. These engines now use the same "Porsche Integrated Dry Sump" (read really a wet sump) that is common to every 9A1 model from the Boxster on up. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these new Turbo engines opened up to what else has changed inside the business department.

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For better or worse they are all coming with P Zeros. The last set I had did not do well at all. They scalloped on the inside worse than any tire I have ever seen. Michelin does make Super Sports in this size....

I had an opportunity to put in a little seat time in one of the new Turbos today (demo unit at a local dealer). Overall, a very impressive ride; the car seems to have a more poised balance than a two year old Turbo cab that I had out a year or so back. The PCCB brakes are, well, the PCCB brakes; hit 'em hard enough at speed and you will find yourself hanging in the shoulder harness and slowing down too early for the next turn in. As others have noted, the new steering is a bit dead, but that is unfortunately common to most electric systems. As the weather is brutally cold (10F) here at the moment, the summer tires were not at all happy about what was going on, but they still showed reasonable quality grip even in the winter cold, probably a testament to the four wheel drive, but I would not really push them hard for obvious reasons. With each experience, I am becoming more taken with the PDK, particularly when a car like this is at full boil; shift points tend to come at you pretty fast and the paddles help you keep focus on what is in front of you. The power pours on fairly smoothly from almost any RPM range, but if you have the car north of about 3-4 K RPM's in first and mash it, you had better have a good grip on something, its reputation for being the fastest accelerating Turbo yet is well earned.

On the down side, I was a little disappointed to find out that the true dry sump oiling system of the Metzger style engine's is gone from these 9A1 variant equipped cars. These engines now use the same "Porsche Integrated Dry Sump" (read really a wet sump) that is common to every 9A1 model from the Boxster on up. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these new Turbo engines opened up to what else has changed inside the business department.

JFP, Snap On makes several 3/4 drive torque wrenches. Is there any particular model you like?? You didn't happen to take a look under it's back side? Still wondering how I'm going to jack it's tail up to get jack stands under it.

What color was the one you drove and what do you think, not that I can change anything. At this point the specs are locked in.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. :drive:

Edited by Mijostyn

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For better or worse they are all coming with P Zeros. The last set I had did not do well at all. They scalloped on the inside worse than any tire I have ever seen. Michelin does make Super Sports in this size....

I had an opportunity to put in a little seat time in one of the new Turbos today (demo unit at a local dealer). Overall, a very impressive ride; the car seems to have a more poised balance than a two year old Turbo cab that I had out a year or so back. The PCCB brakes are, well, the PCCB brakes; hit 'em hard enough at speed and you will find yourself hanging in the shoulder harness and slowing down too early for the next turn in. As others have noted, the new steering is a bit dead, but that is unfortunately common to most electric systems. As the weather is brutally cold (10F) here at the moment, the summer tires were not at all happy about what was going on, but they still showed reasonable quality grip even in the winter cold, probably a testament to the four wheel drive, but I would not really push them hard for obvious reasons. With each experience, I am becoming more taken with the PDK, particularly when a car like this is at full boil; shift points tend to come at you pretty fast and the paddles help you keep focus on what is in front of you. The power pours on fairly smoothly from almost any RPM range, but if you have the car north of about 3-4 K RPM's in first and mash it, you had better have a good grip on something, its reputation for being the fastest accelerating Turbo yet is well earned.

On the down side, I was a little disappointed to find out that the true dry sump oiling system of the Metzger style engine's is gone from these 9A1 variant equipped cars. These engines now use the same "Porsche Integrated Dry Sump" (read really a wet sump) that is common to every 9A1 model from the Boxster on up. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these new Turbo engines opened up to what else has changed inside the business department.

JFP, Snap On makes several 3/4 drive torque wrenches. Is there any particular model you like?? You didn't happen to take a look under it's back side? Still wondering how I'm going to jack it's tail up to get jack stands under it.

What color was the one you drove and what do you think, not that I can change anything. At this point the specs are locked in.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. :drive:

Car was Rhodium Silver Metallic Turbo "S", black leather with white stitching. Very attractive looking combination. I also like the dash layout and smaller sized steering wheel, makes getting in and out a bit easier.

I actually had the car up on a lift; still uses side jack points (I have never been one for trying to lift the entire rear end by one jack point). When I had it up in the air is when I noticed the wet sump, which was confirmed by the Porsche zone rep that was driving the car.

I prefer the Snap On QD4R400 80-400 ft. lb. unit, used one for years and as with other Snap On's holds its accuracy well: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=640967&group_ID=675227&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

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Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

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there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump

I'm not an expert on the "integrated dry sump", but I don't see how that could be true. Time will be the judge but the Mezger definitely will be a tough act to follow........

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there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump

I'm not an expert on the "integrated dry sump", but I don't see how that could be true. Time will be the judge but the Mezger definitely will be a tough act to follow........

Generally, Porsche has been a tough act to follow, at least until the Wendelin Wiedeking years. He had to make Porsche profitable again and by ceasing all racing, cheapening the product, and out right profiteering he made Porsche the most profitable automobile company ever. The Metzger managed to side slip this process but the original 9A1s did not. He tried to put Boxter head lights on the 911 again saving money but we the people shoved that one right back in his face.

Now we enter a new/old age. WW is gone, The overall quality of the cars is improving and Porsche is back at the edge of Automotive technology. But, most of all we are back RACING.

The term "integrated dry sump" does sound like a marketing ploy to me. But, I have not seen a break away of the engine. When JFP sees one open he can tell us what is going on. There certainly is a lot more depth to the oil pan now.

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It's definitely a marketing ploy if you ask me. If you read about the technology on Porsche's website they tell you "this is the exact same thing as a real dry sump! we just integrated it into the engine thereby reducing plumbing and saving space! rejoice!"

Also, I believe it is "Mezger" -- no "t" :cheers:

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It's definitely a marketing ploy if you ask me. If you read about the technology on Porsche's website they tell you "this is the exact same thing as a real dry sump! we just integrated it into the engine thereby reducing plumbing and saving space! rejoice!"

Also, I believe it is "Mezger" -- no "t" :cheers:

"Hans Mezger joined Porsche in 1956 and became a principal contributor to the Stuttgart auto manufacturer’s unmatched success over the following 37 years.

Demonstrating an early command of mathematics and analysis, Mezger cut his teeth on improving the competitiveness of the famed ‘Fuhrmann’ 4-cam engine, moving on in 1960 to Porsche’s F1 program and becoming a driving force in the design of the 8-cylinder F1 engine.

The following year, he was charged with responsibility for the design of the new six cylinder 911 engine, understanding from the start the need for its suitability for both production and motorsport – arguably the most far reaching technical decision in Porsche’s history."

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

As we mostly work on our lifts, jacking up the car is not a common event; but when we do need to, we put aftermarket jacking pads into the car's jack point bayonet fittings, and then lift each side with a floor jack, then set the car on jack stands with hockey pucks on the top to prevent marring anything.

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Not to throw gas on the fire, but the Mezger engine, while a mechanical marvel and piece of engineering art work, is a dated design and very costly and time consuming to produce. At the end of the day, Porsche needed to go DFI to continue the performance evolution on the Turbos, which would have meant a costly redesign of an already expensive old design. So instead, they went with a modified 9A1 production engine instead. How well that decision will play out, only history will tell.

I remain circumspect about the loss of the dry sump system. Besides providing better oil control under high G loads, dry sump systems do a far superior job of deaerating the oil before returning it to the engine, helping to cool the oil, as well as eliminating any chance of crank shaft windage from oil sloshing about in the sump. Granted, there are other ways of helping to control windage, but dry sumps eliminate it, which is why they are common on many types of race engines. Until I have a chance to see what else they have done internally to the 9A1 to control the problems that a dry sump would have eliminated, I will continue to question the logic of going this route. It really seems like the wrong direction.

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

As we mostly work on our lifts, jacking up the car is not a common event; but when we do need to, we put aftermarket jacking pads into the car's jack point bayonet fittings, and then lift each side with a floor jack, then set the car on jack stands with hockey pucks on the top to prevent marring anything.

Jack point bayonet fittings?? Not sure what you mean. I can jack 1/2 the car easily by using the rear jack pad (with the centering hole) Then I stick an Esco jack stand under the front jack pad. I can't put one at the rear because the floor jack is there. I place the front Jack stand on the other side. Now the front of the car is up. I jack the rear from a center point (the 997 has a pad just for this) and place both rear stands. The back goes up real easy because it is being counter balanced by the part of the car hanging out in front of the front jack stands. The Esco stands are the best I have ever seen. They are big and stable with a large foot print and the top has a very nice round rubber pad which had to be made just for 911s. Pelican has them I believe.

Sorry about the spelling. Mezger it is. JFP, wasn't the Mezger a hybrid engine using the aircooled split case block with water cooled cylinders and heads??

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It's definitely a marketing ploy if you ask me. If you read about the technology on Porsche's website they tell you "this is the exact same thing as a real dry sump! we just integrated it into the engine thereby reducing plumbing and saving space! rejoice!"

Also, I believe it is "Mezger" -- no "t" :cheers:

Son of a gun!! I found a picture of the engine with the oil pan off. The oil pan is the tank! There are two baffles on either side of the oil pick up which is dead center pointing to the front. The return is on the right side. The crank case is entirely walled off. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no direct communication between the crankcase and the oil tank. The crank case must empty into the return. The baffles keep the oil from sloshing around. I believe (but am not absolutely sure) that under operation there is no air at all in the tank. The return is very large and I would bet there is a fairly large cavity above it that must contain several liters of oil. They must get the oil level up there because there is no way they are getting it in a horizontal tank that can't be more than 3 inches thick. So the sump is dry. It sits above the oil tank.

Edited by Mijostyn

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It's definitely a marketing ploy if you ask me. If you read about the technology on Porsche's website they tell you "this is the exact same thing as a real dry sump! we just integrated it into the engine thereby reducing plumbing and saving space! rejoice!"

Also, I believe it is "Mezger" -- no "t" :cheers:

Son of a gun!! I found a picture of the engine with the oil pan off. The oil pan is the tank! There are two baffles on either side of the oil pick up which is dead center pointing to the front. The return is on the right side. The crank case is entirely walled off. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no direct communication between the crankcase and the oil tank. The crank case must empty into the return. The baffles keep the oil from sloshing around. I believe (but am not absolutely sure) that under operation there is no air at all in the tank. The return is very large and I would bet there is a fairly large cavity above it that must contain several liters of oil. They must get the oil level up there because there is no way they are getting it in a horizontal tank that can't be more than 3 inches thick.

Got a link to that picture?

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I tried to post it but screwed it up somehow. I'll have to go back and pilfer through 991 pictures to find it again. Recreating the trail is tough. You click on one picture and a bunch pop up. You click on another and a different bunch of pictures pop up. And on and on.

The bottom cover was most definitely off. I know what that looks like. Above is just a flat expanse of aluminum with the baffles cast in. The return is just a large polygonal hole in the right side. This was not a Turbo. If I remember correctly the oil feeds for the turbos come right off the block. Doesn't the Turbo get a larger capacity oil pump?

JFP, also about the jacking??

Edited by Mijostyn

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

As we mostly work on our lifts, jacking up the car is not a common event; but when we do need to, we put aftermarket jacking pads into the car's jack point bayonet fittings, and then lift each side with a floor jack, then set the car on jack stands with hockey pucks on the top to prevent marring anything.

Jack point bayonet fittings?? Not sure what you mean. I can jack 1/2 the car easily by using the rear jack pad (with the centering hole) Then I stick an Esco jack stand under the front jack pad. I can't put one at the rear because the floor jack is there. I place the front Jack stand on the other side. Now the front of the car is up. I jack the rear from a center point (the 997 has a pad just for this) and place both rear stands. The back goes up real easy because it is being counter balanced by the part of the car hanging out in front of the front jack stands. The Esco stands are the best I have ever seen. They are big and stable with a large foot print and the top has a very nice round rubber pad which had to be made just for 911s. Pelican has them I believe.

Sorry about the spelling. Mezger it is. JFP, wasn't the Mezger a hybrid engine using the aircooled split case block with water cooled cylinders and heads??

The engine with air cooled cylinders and water cooled heads you are referring to was most famous for its appearance in the legendary 959 street cars. As Loren mentioned, Hans was involved in just about every Porsche Motorsports effort during his tenure with Porsche, including the air cooled 12 cylinder cars, the F1 program, and the still born Indy car. There is even a book and DVD out about his years at Porsche and covers many of the projects:

51iQjLp7JAL._SX258_PJlook-inside-v2,TopR

The jack pad I was referring to with the bayonet mount looks like this:

jack_pad_late.JPG

And it fits in here:

jacking_points.jpg

pic04.jpg

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And just as a by-the-by, this is a photo of the Mantis sump extension that shows the inside of a stock sump cover from the 9A1:

2009%20&%20UP%20OIl%20Sump%20Ext.002.jpg

And here is a shot looking up at the same sump cover on a 9A1 from below:

2012_997_Carrera_GTS_SharkWerks_Exhaust_

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

As we mostly work on our lifts, jacking up the car is not a common event; but when we do need to, we put aftermarket jacking pads into the car's jack point bayonet fittings, and then lift each side with a floor jack, then set the car on jack stands with hockey pucks on the top to prevent marring anything.

Jack point bayonet fittings?? Not sure what you mean. I can jack 1/2 the car easily by using the rear jack pad (with the centering hole) Then I stick an Esco jack stand under the front jack pad. I can't put one at the rear because the floor jack is there. I place the front Jack stand on the other side. Now the front of the car is up. I jack the rear from a center point (the 997 has a pad just for this) and place both rear stands. The back goes up real easy because it is being counter balanced by the part of the car hanging out in front of the front jack stands. The Esco stands are the best I have ever seen. They are big and stable with a large foot print and the top has a very nice round rubber pad which had to be made just for 911s. Pelican has them I believe.

Sorry about the spelling. Mezger it is. JFP, wasn't the Mezger a hybrid engine using the aircooled split case block with water cooled cylinders and heads??

The engine with air cooled cylinders and water cooled heads you are referring to was most famous for its appearance in the legendary 959 street cars. As Loren mentioned, Hans was involved in just about every Porsche Motorsports effort during his tenure with Porsche, including the air cooled 12 cylinder cars, the F1 program, and the still born Indy car. There is even a book and DVD out about his years at Porsche and covers many of the projects:

51iQjLp7JAL._SX258_PJlook-inside-v2,TopR

The jack pad I was referring to with the bayonet mount looks like this:

jack_pad_late.JPG

And it fits in here:

jacking_points.jpg

pic04.jpg

That is a funky picture. I can't quite get the orientation. The good thing is that there are alternative jack points on the 991. How many are there? I can use the floor jack with them and place the Escos at the usual positions?

The picture I saw was a similar shot but with the oil pan/sump cover removed. This sump extension is just to give you more oil capacity? I have not seen the spec. Do you happen to know how much oil the Turbo holds?

Edited by Mijostyn

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Thanx JFP, A friend runs a shop and has a Snap On account (read discount), he is going to order one for me on Monday. It is just that the rear jack point makes it so easy to get the car up on jack stands. Do you have another method??

Agree that the rhodium silver TTS is a very sharp looking car and agree about the dash layout. There are a lot of things about the 991 TT that I find better......but, so far, the engine is not one of them.

I will let time be the judge but I don't think the latest generation will be able to match the Mezger. Another member of this site who worked for PCNA said Porsche had consulted Toyota on production and Toyota was blown away with the cost and sophistication of the Mezger to the point where they wondered what the heck Porsche was doing. While I don't have any inside information, it certainly seems that there's a lot of truth to that from everything I have read so far. I'm sure the 991 will be an outstanding car in many ways, but a move such as going back to a wet sump (no matter what they want to call it) is definitely a step backward if you ask me. I'll get off my soapbox but this is another reason I think the Porsche owners community (buyers) really got the 996 TT wrong. The cost is too cheap and not priced correctly. $40K for a low mileage 996TT is just plain ridiculous if you consider the sheer sophistication of the engine -- it is an engineering masterpiece in many ways. Just a prediction but I don't think the 991 changes things and the Mezger still goes down as one of the best -- if not THE best -- engines Porsche ever made.......

SilverTT, there is absolutely no question that the most economical way to get a Metzer is by getting a 996 TT. The Metzger is a wonderful engine and time may show that it was Porsche's best. On the other hand technology moves on and there is a growing group who believe the 991 version of the 9A1 is fully up to snuff. The GT3 version is winning hearts and souls by the minute. The advantage of the dry sump system in the older cars was that it insured a constant oil supply under high lateral G's. It of course required the use of a separate oil tank which takes up space and adds additional plumbing to a car that has more than its fair share. It is entirely possible to design a block and sump to prevent oil starvation under any circumstance which is exactly what Porsche has said it has done. Which means there is absolutely no advantage in having a dry sump. I for one will be quite happy not to have to pull two drain plugs every time I change the oil.

This years racing season will pretty much determine the viability and reliability of the new 9A1. Porsche is back in the field and staking its honor on it!

As we mostly work on our lifts, jacking up the car is not a common event; but when we do need to, we put aftermarket jacking pads into the car's jack point bayonet fittings, and then lift each side with a floor jack, then set the car on jack stands with hockey pucks on the top to prevent marring anything.

Jack point bayonet fittings?? Not sure what you mean. I can jack 1/2 the car easily by using the rear jack pad (with the centering hole) Then I stick an Esco jack stand under the front jack pad. I can't put one at the rear because the floor jack is there. I place the front Jack stand on the other side. Now the front of the car is up. I jack the rear from a center point (the 997 has a pad just for this) and place both rear stands. The back goes up real easy because it is being counter balanced by the part of the car hanging out in front of the front jack stands. The Esco stands are the best I have ever seen. They are big and stable with a large foot print and the top has a very nice round rubber pad which had to be made just for 911s. Pelican has them I believe.

Sorry about the spelling. Mezger it is. JFP, wasn't the Mezger a hybrid engine using the aircooled split case block with water cooled cylinders and heads??

The engine with air cooled cylinders and water cooled heads you are referring to was most famous for its appearance in the legendary 959 street cars. As Loren mentioned, Hans was involved in just about every Porsche Motorsports effort during his tenure with Porsche, including the air cooled 12 cylinder cars, the F1 program, and the still born Indy car. There is even a book and DVD out about his years at Porsche and covers many of the projects:

51iQjLp7JAL._SX258_PJlook-inside-v2,TopR

The jack pad I was referring to with the bayonet mount looks like this:

jack_pad_late.JPG

And it fits in here:

jacking_points.jpg

pic04.jpg

That is a funky picture. I can't quite get the orientation. The good thing is that there are alternative jack points on the 991. How many are there? I can use the floor jack with them and place the Escos at the usual positions?

The picture I saw was a similar shot but with the oil pan/sump cover removed. This sump extension is just to give you more oil capacity? I have not seen the spec. Do you happen to know how much oil the Turbo holds?

I've only seen one spec sheet, which said, " Replace engine oil, 7.4L for oil change, 10.4L for engine rebuild/new engine."

There are four "designated jacking points", two (one on each side) just behind the front wheels, and two (one on each side) ahead of the rear wheels. The plate shown twists into these mounts so that it provides a large flat surface for the jack to mate with and have great stability. The jack stands them selves can be positioned in a number of places where there is sufficient structure. As I mentioned, as we generally have the cars on a lift, we use the plates as pickup points for the lift, which works excellently and never marks the car in anyway.

The sump extension is supposed to add about 1 1/2 quart or so to the total capacity without causing ground clearance issues. There are several similar for the M96/97 engines.

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Now I understand. There is no need for those fancy plates, pucks and Escos work just fine. So, you place the stands at the alternate jack points which are essentially the frame which is covered by plastic panels... You might damage the panels. I'm gonna find somewhere at the back to jack...sing it one more time :-)

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Now I understand. There is no need for those fancy plates, pucks and Escos work just fine. So, you place the stands at the alternate jack points which are essentially the frame which is covered by plastic panels... You might damage the panels. I'm gonna find somewhere at the back to jack...sing it one more time :-)

No, we do not use jack stands under the plastic panels, that would damage the cover panels. I prefer to use the rear suspension pickup points for the jack stands.

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For better or worse they are all coming with P Zeros. The last set I had did not do well at all. They scalloped on the inside worse than any tire I have ever seen. Michelin does make Super Sports in this size....

I had an opportunity to put in a little seat time in one of the new Turbos today (demo unit at a local dealer). Overall, a very impressive ride; the car seems to have a more poised balance than a two year old Turbo cab that I had out a year or so back. The PCCB brakes are, well, the PCCB brakes; hit 'em hard enough at speed and you will find yourself hanging in the shoulder harness and slowing down too early for the next turn in. As others have noted, the new steering is a bit dead, but that is unfortunately common to most electric systems. As the weather is brutally cold (10F) here at the moment, the summer tires were not at all happy about what was going on, but they still showed reasonable quality grip even in the winter cold, probably a testament to the four wheel drive, but I would not really push them hard for obvious reasons. With each experience, I am becoming more taken with the PDK, particularly when a car like this is at full boil; shift points tend to come at you pretty fast and the paddles help you keep focus on what is in front of you. The power pours on fairly smoothly from almost any RPM range, but if you have the car north of about 3-4 K RPM's in first and mash it, you had better have a good grip on something, its reputation for being the fastest accelerating Turbo yet is well earned.

On the down side, I was a little disappointed to find out that the true dry sump oiling system of the Metzger style engine's is gone from these 9A1 variant equipped cars. These engines now use the same "Porsche Integrated Dry Sump" (read really a wet sump) that is common to every 9A1 model from the Boxster on up. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these new Turbo engines opened up to what else has changed inside the business department.

JFP, Snap On makes several 3/4 drive torque wrenches. Is there any particular model you like?? You didn't happen to take a look under it's back side? Still wondering how I'm going to jack it's tail up to get jack stands under it.

What color was the one you drove and what do you think, not that I can change anything. At this point the specs are locked in.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. :drive:

Car was Rhodium Silver Metallic Turbo "S", black leather with white stitching. Very attractive looking combination. I also like the dash layout and smaller sized steering wheel, makes getting in and out a bit easier.

I actually had the car up on a lift; still uses side jack points (I have never been one for trying to lift the entire rear end by one jack point). When I had it up in the air is when I noticed the wet sump, which was confirmed by the Porsche zone rep that was driving the car.

I prefer the Snap On QD4R400 80-400 ft. lb. unit, used one for years and as with other Snap On's holds its accuracy well: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=640967&group_ID=675227&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

This Snap-On torque wrench is only rated for 400 ft-lbs (542 Nm) whereas the tightening spec for the center lock wheels is 443 ft-lbs (600 Nm). Assume you feel this is adequate until you can get to a Porsche dealer?

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For better or worse they are all coming with P Zeros. The last set I had did not do well at all. They scalloped on the inside worse than any tire I have ever seen. Michelin does make Super Sports in this size....

I had an opportunity to put in a little seat time in one of the new Turbos today (demo unit at a local dealer). Overall, a very impressive ride; the car seems to have a more poised balance than a two year old Turbo cab that I had out a year or so back. The PCCB brakes are, well, the PCCB brakes; hit 'em hard enough at speed and you will find yourself hanging in the shoulder harness and slowing down too early for the next turn in. As others have noted, the new steering is a bit dead, but that is unfortunately common to most electric systems. As the weather is brutally cold (10F) here at the moment, the summer tires were not at all happy about what was going on, but they still showed reasonable quality grip even in the winter cold, probably a testament to the four wheel drive, but I would not really push them hard for obvious reasons. With each experience, I am becoming more taken with the PDK, particularly when a car like this is at full boil; shift points tend to come at you pretty fast and the paddles help you keep focus on what is in front of you. The power pours on fairly smoothly from almost any RPM range, but if you have the car north of about 3-4 K RPM's in first and mash it, you had better have a good grip on something, its reputation for being the fastest accelerating Turbo yet is well earned.

On the down side, I was a little disappointed to find out that the true dry sump oiling system of the Metzger style engine's is gone from these 9A1 variant equipped cars. These engines now use the same "Porsche Integrated Dry Sump" (read really a wet sump) that is common to every 9A1 model from the Boxster on up. I'm looking forward to seeing one of these new Turbo engines opened up to what else has changed inside the business department.

JFP, Snap On makes several 3/4 drive torque wrenches. Is there any particular model you like?? You didn't happen to take a look under it's back side? Still wondering how I'm going to jack it's tail up to get jack stands under it.

What color was the one you drove and what do you think, not that I can change anything. At this point the specs are locked in.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. :drive:

Car was Rhodium Silver Metallic Turbo "S", black leather with white stitching. Very attractive looking combination. I also like the dash layout and smaller sized steering wheel, makes getting in and out a bit easier.

I actually had the car up on a lift; still uses side jack points (I have never been one for trying to lift the entire rear end by one jack point). When I had it up in the air is when I noticed the wet sump, which was confirmed by the Porsche zone rep that was driving the car.

I prefer the Snap On QD4R400 80-400 ft. lb. unit, used one for years and as with other Snap On's holds its accuracy well: http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=640967&group_ID=675227&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

This Snap-On torque wrench is only rated for 400 ft-lbs (542 Nm) whereas the tightening spec for the center lock wheels is 443 ft-lbs (600 Nm). Assume you feel this is adequate until you can get to a Porsche dealer?

No, until I get out my QD5R1000, which can take them to 1,000 ft.-lbs. if required................... :D

QD5R1000.jpg

In reality, the difference between 400 and 443 is pretty insignificant, while the price for the QD5R1000 is over $2K, and the QD4R400 is only about $800. You could also jump for a TQR600E which will take you to 600, but at a price as well. You will also find most dealers do not have wrenches going that high either.

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