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xmac

Dumb question on SIR Tools P253 camshaft timing tool

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In preparation for variocam pad replacement work, I ordered the a P260 master timing kit. When I pulled the actual timing tool out, I noticed the black pin for the exhaust camshaft slot is turned slightly off axis. I expected it to be offset from centerline but still parallel. Just want to double check that this is normal. Thanks!

bdb131d0-4066-4023-9c54-83bf2f4af863.jpg

18DB4937-2B86-40C1-A9C7-7E84ED64B890.jpg

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In preparation for variocam pad replacement work, I ordered the a P260 master timing kit. When I pulled the actual timing tool out, I noticed the black pin for the exhaust camshaft slot is turned slightly off axis. I expected it to be offset from centerline but still parallel. Just want to double check that this is normal. Thanks!

bdb131d0-4066-4023-9c54-83bf2f4af863.jpg

18DB4937-2B86-40C1-A9C7-7E84ED64B890.jpg

They should line up a bit better. Have you tried to see if they will rotate in the bar? I haven't used that particular tool as I have the Porsche 9612 "blocking device" and both fixtures move on it:

kt20355-4.jpgkt20355.jpg

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The diamond/oval piece is removable but not the round part. The round piece that fits into the exhaust camshaft has two pins that get pressed into the long bar. The pins are two sizes so as to keep the correct orientation. This is the kit I bought.

stp_260.jpg

Edited by xmac

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The diamond/oval piece is removable but not the round part. The round piece that fits into the exhaust camshaft has two pins that get pressed into the long bar. The pins are two sizes so as to keep the correct orientation. This is the kit I bought.

stp_260.jpg

I think I'd get SIR on the phone and ask them about this. Only thought that comes to mind is that they may be offsetting it slightly so you can use some mechanical leverage when installing it, more as a holding tool than a timing tool. That would also explain why one end of the bar sticks out so far past the cam centerlines. I found one picture of it in use, and while somewhat at an angle, it still looks like the round exhaust part is square to the tool edge:

pic03.jpg

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The LN tools have a slight bevel on of the faces for both intake/exhaust that make it a bit easier to install. JFP summerizes it well above, more for holding.

Are you timing a MK1 or MK2?

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This tool is like the Porsche special tool 9612/9 called out in the FSM as "Adjustment Device" for use to hold the exhaust cam in the correct timing position, assuming you take the valve cover off, set the exhaust cam into the timing position then lock it down with this tool prior to re-assembly. I suppose you can also remove the diamond/oval piece to turn the exhaust cam to the correct timing position, re-install/re-attach, and lockdown while you tighten the chain sprocket. Some people may use it as a cam hold tool, but I can't see how it would hold the intake cam securely compared to the Porsche 9634 type of tool or P255 tool in Sir Tools kit.

In any case, I did contact them today. They need more pics and measurements but are working with me to get it figured out. I did manage to find a picture someone else posted that appears to be more like I expect (I added the blue line).

p253_line.jpg

Edited by xmac

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This tool is like the Porsche special tool 9612/9 called out in the FSM as "Adjustment Device" for use to hold the exhaust cam in the correct timing position, assuming you take the valve cover off, set the exhaust cam into the timing position then lock it down with this tool prior to re-assembly. I suppose you can also remove the diamond/oval piece to turn the exhaust cam to the correct timing position, re-install/re-attach, and lockdown while you tighten the chain sprocket. Some people may use it as a cam hold tool, but I can't see how it would hold the intake cam securely compared to the Porsche 9634 type of tool or P255 tool in Sir Tools kit.

In any case, I did contact them today. They need more pics and measurements but are working with me to get it figured out. I did manage to find a picture someone else posted that appears to be more like I expect (I added the blue line).

p253_line.jpg

I'm sure they will take car of you, they are a reputable firm. The pic above is more what I would expect as well.

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New tool finally showed up. UPS took 5 days to ship a few hundred miles. In any case, the replacement tool is more like expected.

6961119A-4950-47C1-A05A-90D489D82736.jpg

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New tool finally showed up. UPS took 5 days to ship a few hundred miles. In any case, the replacement tool is more like expected.

6961119A-4950-47C1-A05A-90D489D82736.jpg

Glad you got it sorted, SIR is pretty good about supporting their tools.

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Just to close out on the thread, this is a picture SIR Tools took off one of the tools they had. They said mine was the first tool to have an issue in 5 years of making it.

ccccccccc2.jpg

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Hi, I'm hearing different names for this tool, Pelican calls it a cam timing tool and the 9624 tool the holding tool. On a 99 Boxster I read the intake cam end is not slotted, if so does the diamond shape fitting on the tool fit into the intake cam to insure both cams are timed in relation to each other? Thanks V

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Well... I got my tool the other day and am having similar problems. It won't drop in when crank is locked TDC....I manage to get it in a few degrees after TDC and the bolt holes don't line up to bolt it to the side of the engine case as intended. The interesting thing is this is duplicated on the other bank as well. Now some will say well....your out of timing....BUT what are the chances both banks are out at the same exact place(few degrees after TDC) and why doesn't the bolt holes line up? I can only assume the tool was machined incorrectly. BTW nothing was done to the engine yet to facilitate loss of timing. I drove the car 2 hrs when purchased in the same condition it is in now. Maybe I got your old tool! Mine looks ever so slightly angled as well, I didn't check it with a straight edge. Was the corrected tool bang straight on? Any thoughts on this ....the tool is a SIR tool P253. Thanks Vin

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9 hours ago, vza said:

Well... I got my tool the other day and am having similar problems. It won't drop in when crank is locked TDC....I manage to get it in a few degrees after TDC and the bolt holes don't line up to bolt it to the side of the engine case as intended. The interesting thing is this is duplicated on the other bank as well. Now some will say well....your out of timing....BUT what are the chances both banks are out at the same exact place(few degrees after TDC) and why doesn't the bolt holes line up? I can only assume the tool was machined incorrectly. BTW nothing was done to the engine yet to facilitate loss of timing. I drove the car 2 hrs when purchased in the same condition it is in now. Maybe I got your old tool! Mine looks ever so slightly angled as well, I didn't check it with a straight edge. Was the corrected tool bang straight on? Any thoughts on this ....the tool is a SIR tool P253. Thanks Vin

 

If you do a search, someone else experienced something similar and it was a problem with the tool.  SIR made good on it and replaced the tool, and the second one worked fine.

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Yeah ...I saw that I'm just wondering if in fact its the tool....seems like it would be considering both banks are out at the same place. V

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Well I got the Ims tool kit from LN engineering and the cam lock dropped right in for bank 1 which leads me to believe the P253cam tool is off I couldn't get it in bank 2 but didn't spend that much time with it. I went ahead and marked the other 3 cams and inserted 2 set screws in place of the the Ims cover bolts as per Pelican instructions. Went ahead to remove the bearing and of course the center stud for the bearing snapped. I rented a pilot bearing puller but would have to fashion a 2'' pipe to use it with. However I didn't realize the tool kit comes with an 'easyout' sort of an oval nut with a wire attached to it. I assume you work the nut behind the bearing and tread a bolt into it and proceed to pull it. Anyone have experience with this tool? 

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I used the easy out tool....just snake it behind the Bearing and screw the threaded bolt on and proceed with the included puller. Worked great....good amount of force to get it to pop. Bearing was in fact compromised, the rubber seal was torn allowing engine oil to get into the bearing and wash out the 'permenant ' grease. Some metallic 'glitter' cleaned out of shaft....hope it hasn't done too much damage!!! Any thoughts??

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22 hours ago, vza said:

Well I got the Ims tool kit from LN engineering and the cam lock dropped right in for bank 1 which leads me to believe the P253cam tool is off I couldn't get it in bank 2 but didn't spend that much time with it. I went ahead and marked the other 3 cams and inserted 2 set screws in place of the the Ims cover bolts as per Pelican instructions. Went ahead to remove the bearing and of course the center stud for the bearing snapped. I rented a pilot bearing puller but would have to fashion a 2'' pipe to use it with. However I didn't realize the tool kit comes with an 'easyout' sort of an oval nut with a wire attached to it. I assume you work the nut behind the bearing and tread a bolt into it and proceed to pull it. Anyone have experience with this tool? 

 

Using the pelican method is at the least rather risky as the set screws are pushing on the IMS shaft gear, which is only a press fit and can be dislodged by this method.  If that happens, the engine has to come out and apart to fix it.  There are reasons that no one else even suggests this approach.

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Well that's alarming ….only hand tightened them and they were loose after the bearing came out, I've read the IMS has a little play and can move forward into the oil pump I wound up snugging them up but only finger tight using a socket between thumb and forefinger...and installed the LN cam lock and marked the cams. I mean I doubt I disturbed a pressed fitting by having these hand tight,.... Correct? 

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What about the glitter and compromised bearing....LN engineering  says  STOP DO NOT PROCEED....other blogs and sites(pelican) don't seemed to be to concerned ….they actually tell you to remove metal debris from the IMS shaft if there is any....lots of different views goin around....very confusing. I kind of thought I was in good shape...no metal in my oil filter at all...3 small flakes in bottom of filter housing and as mentioned fine glitter in the shaft. Ugh

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5 hours ago, vza said:

Well that's alarming ….only hand tightened them and they were loose after the bearing came out, I've read the IMS has a little play and can move forward into the oil pump I wound up snugging them up but only finger tight using a socket between thumb and forefinger...and installed the LN cam lock and marked the cams. I mean I doubt I disturbed a pressed fitting by having these hand tight,.... Correct? 

 

That is the problem with this method: You only know when you are finished.

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5 hours ago, vza said:

What about the glitter and compromised bearing....LN engineering  says  STOP DO NOT PROCEED....other blogs and sites(pelican) don't seemed to be to concerned ….they actually tell you to remove metal debris from the IMS shaft if there is any....lots of different views goin around....very confusing. I kind of thought I was in good shape...no metal in my oil filter at all...3 small flakes in bottom of filter housing and as mentioned fine glitter in the shaft. Ugh

 

You are in a "crapshoot" situation.  Technically, the presence of ANY metal in the engine that is ferrous in nature disqualifies the car for a retrofit by LN standards as it only takes one flake to start a series of cascading failures.   Some people have gotten away with doing a retrofit on a questionable engine, others have not been as fortunate.

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Well ....technically....what about in reality??(reference to your quote)  Well that's a drag...I sort of knew that going into it.....picked the car up on the cheap.

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Reality is, you're playing with fire if you install a new bearing (ball or roller) in an engine that's full of metal from the previous bearing. You have to remember that it's not just the IMS Bearing you have to worry about. The main crankshaft bearings and camshaft bearings (or any surface where you have metal to metal surfaces lubricated by and oil film) will also fall prey to this abrasive that has been introduced to the engine oil and therefore been distributed throughout the engine. Installing a new IMS bearing will give you peace of  mind while your engine is being (silently) ruined by said abrasive. This is why FSI/LN Engineering developed the the process to "qualify" an engine for IMS bearing replacement. Proceed at your own risk !

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Well, I found the 'glitter' in the IMS shaft (stuck to a magnet) then out of curiosity I ran the magnet through the drained engine oil and didn't get anything seemed strange to me....nothing in the filter either. Well I'm going to cross my fingers and proceed. Installing an RMS and I've read both to install completely dry or use Curil T on the outside diameter....which is it? Thanks V

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3 hours ago, vza said:

Well, I found the 'glitter' in the IMS shaft (stuck to a magnet) then out of curiosity I ran the magnet through the drained engine oil and didn't get anything seemed strange to me....nothing in the filter either. Well I'm going to cross my fingers and proceed. Installing an RMS and I've read both to install completely dry or use Curil T on the outside diameter....which is it? Thanks V

 

Dry but perfectly clean 

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